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Perfect Hindsight Round Robin Tapestry Game Start
What's your Twist?


Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 12:45:47 PM
Welcome to the Perfect Hindsight Round Robin Tapestry Game!

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 1:19:08 PM
I'll start off by offering my own twist proposal.

The idea is to finally run my Zeoll as the druid/bard he is in his heart. But under core rules, a multi-class druid/bard is way weak. My twist is an "archetype" to make a druid/bard more viable.

Zeoll has always been about being a liontaur, so I'm happy to give up wildshape. That lets me balance other stuff to make the multiclass possible.

Zeoll's Greensinger Archetype Twist

(People are free to link googledocs, if they like, or just to put your ideas in your post.)

Kathy 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 2:50:20 PM
For the Greensinger, why do they have access to Wizard, Bloodwitch, and Cleric spells?

For my Twist, I'd like to play an Aasimar.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 3:26:25 PM
It's only divinations, and it's from Zeoll's background as a seer. It echoes the Wold Seer's ability to pull divinations from other classes. Is it overpowered?

Aasimar gets my vote. That's an easy yes. What class?

Mitch 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 4:47:40 PM
I might go ahead and make a char even though I’m just a reserve. My first thought is an arcane cleric or divine wizard. I’m not sure if that would have any actual impact though - how many effects care about arcane vs divine?

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 5:04:17 PM
I always wanted to play a divine trickster ... an arcane trickster who came at it from a cleric Cleric3/Rogue3/ATX is pretty sweet.

[LOL, Tempting you to play in my sweet sweet Tap!]

Kathy 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 6:27:35 PM
Mitch, have you looked at the oracle class? It's basically a divine sorcerer.

Cayzle, I hadn't seen that it was just divination spells. So that looks okay. But it does make me wonder: why divination? I mean, I know why you want it for Zeoll; you want him to be as close to the existing version as possible. But I'm not seeing why a Greensinger should be particularly concerned with divination.

Mitch 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 7:59:18 PM
90% of my play is the Wold so I have had little to no chance to play with non-woldian classes. I could use my twist to just play a non-standard class maybe? I'm not sure if I'd want to go that direction or if that would even count as a twist.

I'm not even sure I'd want to do the divine wizard or arcane cleric, that's just the first thing I thought of as a possible twist and I'm curious if it would actually change anything other then flavor.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 8:07:05 PM
It's an interesting question, Kathy. If I were making this a logical character option, for use by anyone, how would it be different from the version just intended for Zeoll? If, say, I wanted to put this on my blog, how would I "genericize" it?

First off, remove the fey domain, because that's a Wold-only option. Allow any domain that is open to druids, per the core Nature's Bond druid feature, but a domain only (no animal companion), and keyed to Charisma and gaining domain powers based on caster level, not class level. It's still nerfed compared to core druid because the bonus spells comes at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, etc ... and you never get the level 7, 8, and 9 spells.

Second, as you were saying, take away the divination focus. The thing that has always appealed to me is the roleplay synergy between nature and music. Music soothes the savage beast. Fey creatures and making music, from satyrs to leprechauns. Birds, whales, and wolves all sing, after their fashions. But what mechanics can I use to capture this flavor?

In the Cradled, there is a power to let PCs use magical musical instruments more effectively.

In the Nature Oracle, there is this: "Nature's Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger."

Also varied abilities to speak with animals and plants.

I would like to make it something about fairy magic. Traditionally, fairies use music to befuddle and charm ...

Ideas?

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 8:09:29 PM
Mitch, divine spells don't have arcane spell failure, so the Divine Wizard can be a tank.

The Adept NPC class is interesting. Arcane-like spells that are divine. Heck, take the Adept, throw in a feat every other level, change the familiar to an animal companion, add in a couple domains, and you have something interesting.

That said, you do not have to have a twist! NOT required!

Kathy 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 8:37:34 PM
What if Greensingers could choose a favored terrain--or more like a favored ecology--the way rangers can? And the favored ecology would determine what bonus spells and extra features they got? Or is that needlessly complicated?

In other news, allow me to introduce Honor Bright.

Ken E.  
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 9:48:03 PM
My twist is sort of different, and greatly depends on the game setting.

I kinda want to be a Grippli, because frogs are awesome. I also want to be a Necromancer that actually necromancers things. So, if this tap doesn't follow the Wolds rules on having to be good all the time, I can run a neutral Grippli Necromancer.

If it follows all the Wolds rules but any one rule, then I'd have to leave out Grippli and find a way to either remove the evil descriptor from raising the dead.

Of course, I could do that with a Grippli Witch, but would need some power that gives access to the Death domain, so I could have at the very minimum access to Animate Dead at level 3 and some of the other ones later.

Hrmmmm.

SteveM 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 9:59:52 PM
Elron should be your basic loud-mouth rooster. You know, a barbarian/monk who can do a flurry of blows with any weapon while he's raging.



Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 10:54:01 PM

Ken, my intention is to allow a really wide range of character concepts. That said, in an 8 player game, you need 5 votes to get what you want. Personally I (not Zeoll, he does not get a vote) would be happy to vote yes for a LN Grippli Necromancer.

Steve, a beastfolk barbarian monk is hardly even a twist! Just letting you bypass the alignment restrictions. Totes fine by me. If you want more of a twist, propose making your beastfolk Medium size or even Large. You might need a balancer to go with that, though, especially if you go for Large. ALSO, I think there is an APG monk archetype that specializes in improvised weapons ... yes, the monk of the empty hand. The dirty trick rules and feats from the APG might be fun too. Just throwing ideas out there for you to use or not.

=====

Rob was batting around the idea of a story-telling device -- a "frame" I think they call it -- as a backgrounder to the campaign. Maybe we are all hired by a wealthy anonymous backer who sends us on missions. That lets us avoid PVP conflicts. Zeoll may not like zombies, but our backer hired this frog-guy so we gotta be at least cordial, for example. Rob refers to it as "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" meets "Charlie's Angels." Rob would play "Charlie" between modules. Thoughts? It allows us to go to VERY different settings for each module, which we can hand wave as "Charlie sent us here for the mission."

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 11:00:50 PM

Ken, you've posted here and on the DM Board, but not on the Ghost! Come on! Take the plunge! Sign the book!

Also Ken: Swap out your arcane bond for a skeleton familiar! Let it start tiny and grow as you level. If it loses all its hp, keep the bones and watch it re-assemble when you prep spells each day. Fun!

RobC 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 11:19:38 PM
Good Morning, Angels :D

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 10th, 2020 11:52:37 PM
Oh and Kathy, I like your paladin. Hope they don't mind working with the undead!

Maybe we can work out a tweak that lets the necromancer and the paladin work together? Maybe creating animal skellies has no moral onus? Maybe we specify, like in First Edition, that mindless undead are not evil or good?

Ken, were you wanting to raise and use evil undead?

Mitch 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 1:03:48 AM
A mage tank does sound interesting, I've played with the idea before. Also, the whole reason this game interests me is the twists so why would I not have one heh.

X (working name) | Hugh - Questions about twists 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 8:31:13 AM
I think I may want to play a non Woldian class for my twist. I'm considering alchemist or gunslinger right now but I don't know if I really want to do either of those.

Are we potentially allowing non APG variations like from other books besides Cayzle's splat book and APG?

What about violating the non adventuring cohort rule or being able to craft a construct that you actually take with you in battle? Is that on the table?

I mean I don't know if there is anything in Pathfinder like it but I remember in one of the 3.5 splat books there was a Prestige class that was a caster that specialized in making clockwork constructs.

Tanner 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 8:38:38 AM
Hey, everyone. Just checking in. I'm still mulling over character concepts.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 9:14:20 AM
Are we potentially allowing non APG variations like from other books besides Cayzle's splat book and APG?

Heck, you could write your own darn class yourself! Wanna play a Beekeeper? a Friendly Ghost? a Silver Surfer? a Clockworker? Write it up and get four of your fellow players to sign off on it.

What about violating the non-adventuring cohort rule or being able to craft a construct that you actually take with you in battle? Is that on the table?

You propose it, we vote on it. Anything is on the table! Myself, I will likely vote yes on anything balanced, although I am very leery of PVP. Let's do please all try to get along!

X (working name) | Hugh - Questions about twists 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 10:21:57 AM
Oh I don't want to do PVP but I think I'd like to explore certain things we don't currently allow in the Wold, hence an adventuring cohort, construct maker or other unorthodox class.

Mitch 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 10:23:37 AM
I’ve got it all invent a new class who is empowered by starting stupid arguments with his party. Nothing could possibly go wrong!

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 10:51:21 AM
I finally found the prestige class from the complete arcane from 3.5 was called effigy master; but there are other things in pathfinder that are similar so I might try writing my own class that kind of does these kind of things I would like to do.

Mitch 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 12:12:51 PM
Another interesting idea I may or may not use: twins. The trope of twins who know each other inside and out and fight in perfect synchronization is a classic. My first char was made with another player as her sister but the other player quit in the first module. Playing a pair of twins as a single character would be neat and avoid the issue of relying on a second player.

Several ways to do it off the top of my head. Go ranger/Druid and change the companion to a humanoid. That probably leaves one twin way weaker than the other though. Make two PCs with half as many points for stats and a shared item budget. That might be way too weak early and way too strong later though as they pick up more class features. Create a single duel wielding pc role played as two characters each making an attack and occupying the same space in combat. Probably one of the simplest possible executions but prevents me from specializing the two of them.

Regardless it’s interesting to think about.

Kathy 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 12:47:47 PM
Cayzle, my paladin is pretty easygoing, and working with a necromancer isn't necessarily a deal-breaker.

It kind of depends on why the person is a necromancer. Clinical fascination with anatomy? Cool. Hates wasting anything? Fine. Weird affinity with dead things? Um, okay.

If, on the other hand, the person periodically cackles to themselves and says things like, "soon they'll regret calling me mad!"....well, then we may have a problem.

Incidentally, this fleshes out my character a bit more.

Mitch, I'm just going to leave this here.

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 1:13:25 PM
So what I'm thinking is some sort of artificer / effigy master; maybe I'll try my hand at my own class incorporating concepts from 3 separate classes I've seen across pathfinder and 3.5.

Essentially I'm thinking of some type of gadgeteer type hero that essentially builds devices and gadgets at low levels but then at a higher levels these gagets / devices can include constructs.

Maybe the number of devices this class can keep functioning without mishap is limited and so there is an option to reclaim / salvage other devices to change things given some time?

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 2:42:51 PM
Nifty, Mitch. Maybe use the Lost Child / Wild Sib structure, but for two humanoids. There's some action economy issues there, I suppose. Depends on what classes you took.

The infamous Ga'alian Quads were four PCs with a shared hp pool, from back in the day. Not intended for PCs, of course.

Run two characters with a common hit point pool, but each one has to have at least half of levels in NPC classes? That would be balanced, I think? Would they have the same stats and levels?

Or, make a "Twinned Souls" class, with powers like:
lvl 1: Shared hp pool
lvl 2: Bigger Aid Another bonuses
lvl 3: Empathy
lvl 4: Teamwork feat
lvl 5: Coordination attack
lvl 6: Telepathy
etc

Maybe each twin has to take a Twinned Soul level at every odd level?

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 2:58:42 PM
Effigy Master from 3.5
artificer from Pathfinder community forum
artificer from 3rd party publisher in the d20prfsd

So I kind of like some of the mechanics going on here but I'm not going to do a straight pull. I think i'm going to use these as inspiration for features for my class and then throw in what may need to be balanced or nerfed

Cayzle: First link was busted, but I fixed it.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 3:28:58 PM
Sounds good, Hugh! Looking forward to seeing it. I like the ones that let you make gadgets and things sooner, cause who needs a magic item crafter!?

Also, our default is to use wold rules, including the one that crafting magic items costs 3.4 of book, not 1/2. You might want to address that in your proposal.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 3:33:29 PM
Kathy, I like your background!

Have you looked at APG Pally options?

What are you pondering for your divine bond? Maybe a unicorn variation? Or a pegasus?

Tanner 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 6:30:17 PM
MITCH!

My favorite campaign setting in the whole world is Planescape. There is a race called the Dvati. The race is made of identical twins who share a single soul. Take a look. :)

Kathy 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 6:32:25 PM
That sounds fun, Hugh. I've always kind of liked the idea of the crazy artificer. "Hey, I fixed the wave gun! I'm pretty sure it won't dissolve the user anymore. Just push this button! Oh, you have some acid resistance, right?"

Cayzle, I've already used my Twist, so I'll be playing a plain, vanilla paladin. Upside: plain, vanilla paladins are awesome!

Honor carries her father's sword, so I was thinking of going the sword route. Especially since a paladin mount is a sucker's game. In fact, now I'm re-thinking that skill point I put into Ride.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 7:04:26 PM
"I've already used my Twist"

Well, no. I'm really interpreting the "twist" pretty loosely. Your twist could be more than just a non-Wold race. The only restriction is getting your fellow players to upvote it!

I mean, nothing wrong with an aasimar paladin. It's up to you.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 7:20:50 PM
Oh, and Kathy, I wrote this screed on why paladins are the best crit monsters in the game, granted 14 years ago, but it still holds up.

Mitch 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 7:53:53 PM
Paladin mounts are awesome. Anyone who says otherwise is blasphemous.

Dvati are cool and I might play or reskin one. Really want I need to decide is if I want my 2 PC's to be identical or opposite. I could go the both are warriors/rangers/whatever route, like the Dvati, or I could try some weird both have different but complimentary skill sets, like say archer and melee, sword and sorcery, something like that. That will determine what I use or make to represent them mechanically.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 8:25:12 PM
Mitch, am I moving you up from reserve to playing? Or are you just making a PC for later?

Mitch 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 10:55:28 PM
I'm just playing around with ideas because it's fun. I'll join in once my other tapestry finishes or when/if I feel I have the time to devote to the game (have no idea the ETA on the other tap, it feels like it's just gotten started so may be a while and I may to decide to come in early if there's an opening)

SteveM 
Thursday June 11th, 2020 11:38:18 PM
Working on it...

* Elron will be a Monk/Barbarian
* Monk will be APG Weapon Adept
* Barbarian will be APG Invulnerable Rager, and may use APG rage powers
* Monk and Barbarian classes must always remain within one level of each other.
* Removes favored class -- Elron does not gain bonus skill or HP in either class
* Uncanny dodge -- Elron may gain this ability (like a basic 2nd level Barbarian) as a feat
* When using any one-handed bludgeoning weapon, Elron treats it as a light mace (including damage of 1d4) and may also perform a flurry of blows with it


X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Friday June 12th, 2020 12:06:01 AM
all I know for certain is that HD has to be D6 at this point
I kind of like the 3rd party artificer's weird science ability but I think any divine or arcane spell 4th level or below is too high a spell pool but I do think you should be able to make things like a heal gun, rescue inhaler or wrist emergency potion injector or something.

I'm gonna hopefully take a long look at it this weekend.

Y (Kim) 
Friday June 12th, 2020 7:29:02 AM
Here in the Wold I usually play someone small or medium in size. It might be fun to play someone really big. Something like the goliath of later versions of DnD. Plenty of room for fleshing out there.

Crazy work week with little time for writing here, and I'm heading back to bed now... but really big - that's the seed of my idea.

Tanner 
Friday June 12th, 2020 2:53:08 PM
KIM

Here is a racial paragon class, the Jotun, that let's you play a giant.

Tanner 
Friday June 12th, 2020 3:12:35 PM
My 'twist' submission.

1. The Tetori archetype for the monk.

2. A custom race using the Race Builder.

Mantid (15 RP)
Mantids are a race of praying mantis-like humanoids found in a wide variety of locations and climes. Much like the insects they resemble, mantids are hunters by nature, and excel in stalking or ambushing targets. Their physical appearance is generally uniform, with thin limbs, a chitinous exoskeleton, rigid spines along their forearms, a bulbous triangular head, large compound eyes, and a mouth with eight mandibles. Their coloration can vary widely, however, dependent on the local climate, and can range from brown in deserts, to green in forests and jungles, to various colors of flowers. 

Type: Monstrous Humanoid (3 RP)
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Speed 40ft (Fast, 1 RP)
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha (Advanced, 4 RP)
Languages: Aklo, Common (Standard, 0 RP)
Exoskeleton: Mantids have a chitinous exoskeleton that grants them a +3 natural armor bonus (Natural Armor, 2 RP, Improved Natural Armor (x2), 3 RP)
Ambush Hunter: Mantids are naturally skilled, patient hunters. They gain Skill Focus (Stealth) as a bonus feat. (Static Bonus Feat, 2 RP)
Forearm Spines: Mantids have a row of rigid spines along their forearms for grasping prey. They gain a +2 racial bonus to grapple checks. (1 RP)
Alien Mind: Due to their racial origins, mantids have brains that are very different from other humanoids in structure and function. Mantids can never gain morale bonuses and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects. (2 RP)
Vermin Demeanor: Despite their intelligence and willingness to engage in civilized society, mantids naturally have thought processes and emotions that are bizarre to other humanoids. Mantids have a -4 racial penalty to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks against all creatures that are not verminous. In addition, non-verminous creatures take a -10 penalty to Sense Motive checks when interacting with a mantid. (-3 RP)

Notes: 
- The mantid is 15 RP, and on par with the aasimar.
- The Forearm Spines trait is adapted from the Gatecrasher trait. Gatecrasher provides a +2 racial bonus on Strength checks to break objects and a +2 racial bonus on combat maneuver checks to sunder for 2 RP. That is a +2 bonus to 2 checks for 2 RP. Forearm Spines provides a +2 bonus to 1 check and is 1 RP.
- The Alien Mind trait is adapted from the Constructed trait for Androids. They count as humanoids and constructs for spells and effects, but gain a bonus to several different conditions. They cannot gain morale bonuses, but have immunity to fear and emotions. Both of these are weaknesses paired with bonuses. I cut out the first pair, kept the second, and kept the price the same.
- The Vermin Demeanor trait is adapted from the Skill Bonus trait, which provides a +2 bonus to two skills for 2 RP. Flipped into a weakness it would be equivalent to -4 to skills for -2 RP. Mantids have a -16 penalty, with other creatures taking a -10 penalty, for a total of -6. 4/6=1.5, and 1.5*2=3.


X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Friday June 12th, 2020 3:16:53 PM
So I figured out all the spells that the 2 artificers would give each access to and went through and removed the ones I didn't think would fit. I'm going to keep refining how the spells become devices and how they are alloted and figure out if it is a 4 level or 6 level max device level cap.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Friday June 12th, 2020 4:17:48 PM
I'm fine with making a custom race, but there are significant issues with power balance, beyond the base RP cost. The fundamental issue is that if a DM is making a race to fit a concept for a campaign, the choice of racial stuff is not tailored to maximize the power of a particular character build. In fact, some abilities are often of no use to some players. Also, you have to keep an eye on combat race stuff vs other stuff.

Take elves. Core elves make great wizards, but those wizards are unlikely to make maximal use of the weapon familiarity rule, and even if the perception bonus is nice, it is not optimal because perception is not a class skill for wizards.

You might say, well, a bard uses the magic stuff and the weapons and the perception! Yeah, but elves get a boost to Int, not Chr.

Same philosophy applies to gnomes, say (bonus AC vs giants, anyone?), and other races.

Look at the aasimar. At 15RP, it's double a half-orc. But the celestial resistance is conditional. The skills bonuses are not combat related. The SLA is only marginally combat related, and only vs a limited number of foes.

Okay, let's look at your proposal, Tanner. We're starting with a monk that specializes in grapples. Your race has ...

Type: Monstrous Humanoid (3 RP) 3RP for darkvision, Fine
Size: Medium (0 RP) Fine
Speed 40ft (Fast, 1 RP) Note special synergy with monk move
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha (Advanced, 4 RP) Note that Chr is a dump stat
Languages: Aklo, Common (Standard, 0 RP) Fine
Exoskeleton: Mantids have a chitinous exoskeleton that grants them a +3 natural armor bonus (Natural Armor, 2 RP, Improved Natural Armor (x2), 3 RP) Note super sweet synergy for a low AC monk.
Ambush Hunter: Mantids are naturally skilled, patient hunters. They gain Skill Focus (Stealth) as a bonus feat. (Static Bonus Feat, 2 RP) Sweet synergy with monk skill. Note that the bonus feat is sweeter than a straight +2 to the skill because it starts at +3 and rises to +6!
Forearm Spines: Mantids have a row of rigid spines along their forearms for grasping prey. They gain a +2 racial bonus to grapple checks. (1 RP) Sweet synergy with ALL the grapple boni in your archetype.
Alien Mind: Due to their racial origins, mantids have brains that are very different from other humanoids in structure and function. Mantids can never gain morale bonuses and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects. (2 RP) Fine.
Vermin Demeanor: Despite their intelligence and willingness to engage in civilized society, mantids naturally have thought processes and emotions that are bizarre to other humanoids. Mantids have a -4 racial penalty to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks against all creatures that are not verminous. In addition, non-verminous creatures take a -10 penalty to Sense Motive checks when interacting with a mantid. (-3 RP) A penalty on a skill you never take ranks in and that is based on your dump stat is pretty much no penalty. AND you sneak in a +10 on bluff checks (net +7) vs everybody you'll meet as 3 RP credit. Bogus.

I'd need a serious disadvantage before I would vote for your race, sorry. Tailoring a race to fit your custom PC build is more powerful than the mere RP total implies. +1 level adjustment? You don't rise to second until everybody else rises to third?

Or even better, go back and limit yourself to human level RP, which has 9. No grapple bonus (you got your archetype for that). Only a +1 on nat AC. Maybe not with a +2 on ALL THREE physical stats, I mean, really. Sorry Tanner, you've managed to shock even lenient and liberal me with this one! LOL!

Mitch 
Friday June 12th, 2020 7:04:11 PM
I think I might go with a modified base race, probably human. I'll trade out some of the racial features for variants to represent the two characters. The Dovri are nice and I'm going to take inspiration from them, but they're also requiring a level adjustment and seem really strong with a straight melee build while kind of pointless with a caster build. I'm not sure on what class still, will decide once party comp is formed (hey I'm not joining till later anyway). Probably something flexible so I can keep it simple mechanically while making the two chars diverse (fighter with each using a different weapon, wizard with a broad spell selection, etc.)

I'm thinking something like....

Never One...: The Twins count as a single target and occupy a single 5 foot space. They only take a single turn and act as one PC as long as they remain together. Changing weapons is a free action for them once per turn (representing them trading off rather than drawing a new weapon) and they cannot be flanked by fewer then 3 opponents. They cannot be separated unwillingly unless rendered helpless.

...Without the other When the Twins are separate they lose their defense against flanking and ability to switch weapons as a free action. Each twin can act independently and are a separate target, but their health, BAB, and caster level are cut in half until they reunite.

These skills would essentially replace two racial of whatever race I go for for the pair, for example the feat and skill bonuses of being human. This might be a little too weak, it's hard to judge - I want there to be some bonus to them being together to justify it being a racial, but I also want to punish them from separating to keep the two chars one PC theme. It also introduces interesting RP moments - note they retain their skill points and spell even if separated, so I could in theory make twice as many checks or spells but risk either of them being easy prey to unexpected enemies if I do so.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Friday June 12th, 2020 8:00:04 PM
I like that Mitch, especially the two in the same space. I'm worried about it being underpowered too.

Mitch 
Friday June 12th, 2020 8:12:50 PM
Maybe I combine it with a slightly customized class, or just add it to racials instead of replacing, or just replace one.

Tanner 
Friday June 12th, 2020 8:29:41 PM
Cayzle, your feedback is direct and appreciated.

I adjusted the race. Please see below. I do not know the precise RP because I could not estimate the penalty value for Verminous Physiology. Everything with a known value is currently totaling 10 RP.

===

Mantid (? RP)
Mantids are a race of praying mantis-like humanoids found in a wide variety of locations and climes. Much like the insects they resemble, mantids are hunters by nature, and excel in stalking or ambushing targets. Their physical appearance is generally uniform, with thin limbs, a chitinous exoskeleton, rigid spines along their forearms, a bulbous triangular head, large compound eyes, and a mouth with eight mandibles. Their coloration can vary widely, however, dependent on the local climate, and can range from brown in deserts, to green in forests and jungles, to various colors of flowers. 

Type: Monstrous Humanoid (3 RP)
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Speed: 30ft (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha (Standard, 0 RP)
Languages: Aklo, Common (Standard, 0 RP)
Exoskeleton: Mantids have a chitinous exoskeleton that grants them a +1 natural armor bonus (Natural Armor, 2 RP)
Ambush Hunter: Mantids are opportunistic predators that specialize in surprise tactics. They gain a +2 racial bonus to Acrobatics and Stealth checks. (Skill Bonus, 2 RP)
Forearm Spines: Mantids have a row of rigid spines along their forearms for grasping prey. They gain a +2 racial bonus to grapple checks. (1 RP)
Alien Mind: Due to their racial origins, mantids have brains that are very different from other humanoids in structure and function. Mantids can never gain morale bonuses and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects. (2 RP)
Verminous Physiology: Mantids have bodies that are too thin, too long, and with far more protuberances compared to a typical humanoid body. They may not use items that occupy the eyes, feet, or hands slot. They may only wear armor that has been crafted for mantids, and the cost of such armor is multiplied as per 'Nonhumanoid' armor (x2 for Medium creatures). (-? RP)

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Friday June 12th, 2020 9:13:58 PM
Very much more reasonable, Tanner. I'd vote for that. Shame you'll miss all my sweet sweet bardic inspire courage bonuses.

RobC 
Friday June 12th, 2020 10:00:52 PM
Reading. Plotting.

SteveM 
Friday June 12th, 2020 10:28:48 PM
Still thinking.

Kathy 
Saturday June 13th, 2020 1:01:03 PM
Paladin mounts are awesome. They are also a sucker's game.

I mean, there you are at first level. You put a skill point into Ride because some day you're going to have a paladin mount. You take Mounted Combat as your feat, because you really want to be able to take advantage of it.

Of course, neither does you any good at first level, because you can't even afford a normal horse. But that doesn't matter--someday you'll have a paladin mount and it will all be worth it.

You go on putting skill points into Ride. This is expensive for you, as paladins don't get a lot of skill points, but that's okay. You don't really know how to do anything except ride a horse, but one day that'll all be worth it.

You take the Ride-By Attack feat. You don't get bonus feats up the wazoo the way fighters do, so you're kind of shorting yourself at the moment, but one day you'll have a paladin mount and it will all be worth it.

Meanwhile the party rogue makes fun of you because you don't know how to do anything, and the party fighter is condescending about your attack bonus, but never mind all that. Soon-soon!--you'll have your paladin mount.

And then, at last, the day comes! You get your paladin mount! Everything is great!

And then your DM starts a three-part adventure that takes place entirely underground. You spend a year in narrow, twisting tunnels where you couldn't even lead a horse, let alone ride one. Then you're on a boat at sea, and then in narrow city streets, and then you're underground again. And the whole time, your paladin mount is sitting in the Celestial Realms, playing dominoes with the other horses and wondering why you never call.

And that's why a paladin mount is a sucker's game. It's a class feature that can be taken away by your DM without much effort on their part.

Mitch 
Saturday June 13th, 2020 2:17:06 PM
You say this in a setting where we already have 3 large sized races that see play consistently with no problem whatsoever. Paladin mount is no more restricted by location then Taurs are and we have those running all over the site with no problem. Worst case scenario just grab a wand of reduce person or get the party wizard to cast it on the pair of you occasionally. Insist in character that your horse is a divine animal and accompanies you everywhere and as a celestial won't poop on the floor.

Yeah sure there are more effective builds, archer paladins just look at something and it keels over dead, but this is a game we play for fun and going a crit build with lance charging is absurd when you land the hit - x3 on charge, x3 on crit, it does multiply your smite evil damage, I got 50 on a zombie without critting on a level 5 PC.

SteveM 
Saturday June 13th, 2020 3:35:32 PM
I'm thinking less twisty than my last post. Well, only maybe less twisty. Because I'm also wondering about the possibility of adding strengths and weaknesses as the game continues.

Starting with my current thoughts:

* Elron will be a standard Monk/standard Barbarian
* Monk and Barbarian classes must always remain within one level of each other.
* Begins and favored class as a monk
* Begins with damage reduction equal to half his barbarian level (round down) in lieu of a feat
* Proficient only with bludgeoning melee weapons that are among his class proficiencies
* Has a monk weapon equivalent to a light mace in all other respects, that appears to be a club about two inches thick and four inches wide
* May pick feats normally restricted to fighters using his character level instead of fighter level
* May use feats and barbarian rage powers from the APG

As as aside -- Do the characters have the opportunity to join organizations or use the Catacombs? Hero points?

Looking at the balance:

The big advantage is damage reduction at lower levels. Elron would get DR 1/-- at 3rd or 4th level in return for having lost a feat at the beginning. Limitations on advancement mean that damage reduction will never be higher than 5/--. A straight barbarian would get DR 1/-- at 7th level and reach 5/-- at 19th. A straight monk gets a sudden DR 10/chaotic at 20th level. This is a gain of power at mid levels in return for a loss at low. How it looks at high levels depends on how you stack up multiclass vs straight characters.

The second advantage is the potential to get fighter combat feats with a monk weapon. Of course, Elron would not be getting the bonus feats a fighter gets. This would make a more powerful combatant at higher levels, where bonuses to hit and on damage would stack up during a flurry of blows. The counterbalance is non-proficiency penalties with slashing, piercing, or ranged weapons unless he spends feats to remove those penalties. Okay, so the counterbalance is mostly the ranged weapons.

His personal weapon is a reskinned nunchaku that doesn't disarm. I would call it a wash. And the combination of classes that normally can't combine. . . Also a wash, given my opinions about alignment. And I have no idea whether the use of APG material is an advantage, because I’m not familiar with the APG -- if it’s a well done source, this should be a wash.

I'm beginning to think I could ask for more. Which is where the strengths and weaknesses come in. Suppose that at even character levels (which don't get feats) I propose an advantage and everyone else would set a commensurate disadvantage that also accounts for the character being over- or under-powered? After all, when we’re trying to make balanced characters, the balance that really matters is that among the player characters.


Kathy 
Sunday June 14th, 2020 1:27:37 AM
I dunno, Steve, Elron seems pretty awesome as described.

And I think that an every-other-level benefit that the rest of the group is expected to participate in might be a bit much. The rest of the group will have their own characters to manage, plus one of us will be DMing while managing their character. It's a big ask, I think.

If he really needs more, though, what if he got a bonus feat at 1st level? That starts him down the feat path a little sooner, so he doesn't have to wait quite as long to get the feat combos he wants.

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Sunday June 14th, 2020 9:33:55 AM
My twist is still in progress but here is what I have so far.

The link is commentable. In creating the spell list I took the spell list from the 2 classes I drew inspiraion from as a base and combined them removing anything that wasn't core or APG from the list. I am open to changing the spell list, removing spells, moving spells around as needed. I still need to flush out the whole construct part and add more class feaures I think.

Kathy 
Sunday June 14th, 2020 4:22:42 PM
Hugh, I added some comments, but it's looking pretty good to me.

Zeoll | Cayzle 
Sunday June 14th, 2020 7:11:08 PM
Steve, what happens when your PC gets regular barbarian damage reduction at levels 7 and 10? Does it stack? Or does this replace it?

Also, what size are you planning for your avian beastfolk? Are you using the Wold's version? You could also use the PF Tengu rules. Maybe with a slight reskin to show a different bird origin, rather than crow.

I'm of the opinion that these archetypes that allow only two classes AND require equal levelling (like yours and mine) should have BOTH classes as favored classes. I'm adding that to mine.

It's shaping up!

SteveM 
Sunday June 14th, 2020 8:40:37 PM
Kathy,
Thanks for the perspective. I am not familiar with the classes I'm trying to combine, having never played a barbarian, nor any monks since 2nd edition. The one monk I have seen being very effective was effective because of combat reflexes and a reach weapon.

Hugh,
I would need to know more about the mech minion before offering an opinion. If it were non-combatant, I would say the class is a little underpowered. As a moderately good fighting companion, the mech would make up for that.

Cayzle,
* The DR is intended to replace any DR at 7th and 10th, not stack with it.
* I had been thinking only one favored class. Not that I wouldn't like the extra skills.
* Elron will be Small -- large for a beastfolk when he's being described, but still Small in game terms. Just a Wold beastfolk is fine.



DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Sunday June 14th, 2020 9:36:58 PM
Finished a character sheet. :)

"GREETINGS, HUMANS." You see a bipedal, humanoid orchid mantis. His body is covered in a chitinous exoskeleton and ranges in color from white to fuchsia. His body is long, thin, and covered in ridges. His forearms end in a serrated scythes, with a small tendril at the end for fine manipulation. His head is triangular, with a mouth made of four sets of mandibles and a pair of eyes that are orange, segmented, and unblinking. "THIS ONE IS NAMED DAVE. A GOOD HUMAN NAME, YES? DAVE IS GIVING GREETINGS TO THE HUMANS TO INDICATE HE IS NOT HUNTING THEM." His mandibles clatter and scrape against each other as he approaches. His head swivels rapidly to take in the room, as his eyes cannot move. "DAVE SEEKS TO JOIN A HUMAN HUNTING BAND. DAVE SEEKS SHINY METAL BITS TO TRADE FOR MEAT. WOULD THE HUMANS ALSO DESIRE TO ACQUIRE MEAT?" His antennae twitch inquisitively.

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Monday June 15th, 2020 1:35:33 AM
@Steve M

The class isn't done yet. I got other ideas besides finishing the mech minion (and yes it is supposed to be ac combat companion) and adding additional class features. Don't worry by the time I'm done I am hoping to have a balanced class not under powered

Mitch 
Monday June 15th, 2020 3:32:25 AM
The link in your header does not give me permission to view Tanner.

Mitch 
Monday June 15th, 2020 3:39:37 AM
*Click's Hugh's link. Eyes 66 page document. Backs away slowly*


DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Monday June 15th, 2020 3:55:26 AM
I updated the sharing settings. Does it work now?

Mitch 
Monday June 15th, 2020 5:10:59 AM
Yes. Pink bugs FTW

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Monday June 15th, 2020 7:03:10 AM
@Mitch - Um it isn't going to end at 66 pages. Right now most of that is my reference classes I'm basing bits and peices of the class off of as I flesh out features. Somewhere towards the bottom there is even a ==== below this line is just reference===

Mitch 
Monday June 15th, 2020 8:36:00 AM
I understand why it's that long, but I was going to read the whole thing till I noticed the page count. I'll wait till the research is done and there's a strait char sheet I can look at before I comment.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 15th, 2020 4:46:42 PM
New header

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 15th, 2020 4:53:05 PM
My character sheet and my Twist are done. I was inspired by Kathy to take out the divination stuff and go for a music/fey theme power. I organized it better too. And added both classes as favored.

AND NOW it is time to vote on my twist: The Greensinger

Cayzle: Yes.
Hugh: Yes.
Tanner:
Kathy:
Steve:
Kim:

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 15th, 2020 4:53:35 PM
Whenever you are ready, please link or post your twist and we can vote!

Mitch 
Monday June 15th, 2020 6:55:19 PM
I find your twist reddish blue, which is slightly worse then yellow, which is great because yellow is the top of the Mitch Color scale.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 15th, 2020 7:35:55 PM
Thanks Mitch!

Hey everybody, should we give reserve players a (symbolic) half a vote? :-)

Jeremy's on the reserve list, but he's too busy to come read this board. :-(

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Monday June 15th, 2020 8:47:09 PM
My twist is still in progress but I vote yes on Greensinger

Mitch 
Monday June 15th, 2020 9:05:47 PM
I don't actually want a vote, I just wanted to be silly about it.

Kathy 
Monday June 15th, 2020 9:43:13 PM
I vote yes for Cayzle's twist.

I also vote yes for DAVE, although Tanner hasn't asked yet.

My twist is that my character is an aasimar. That's it. That's the twist. I am deeply boring.

Although the first person to say "sucks to your aasimar" gets a virtual dope-slap.

DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Monday June 15th, 2020 11:28:58 PM
Oh, yeah, good point. Please vote for DAVE.

Yes for Cayzle.
Yes for Kathy.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 1:29:00 AM
VOTING PROGRESS
===== ===== ===== =====

Tanner | DAVE | Mantid (custom race) Monk (Tetori Archetype)

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve:
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Cayzle | Zeoll | The Greensinger

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve:
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Kathy| Honor Bright | Aasimar Paladin

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve:
Kim:

It goes without saying that once you put your twist up for a vote, you can't change it. Or if you do, we reset the votes.

Mitch 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 11:51:23 AM
I’m sorry, I can’t let you do that Dave.

...that joke is going to happen a lot isn’t it?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 1:05:29 PM
Okay, who wants to be called "Daisy"?

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 1:13:45 PM
Yes to Dave, Yes to Honor Bright

You know I'm considering naming my mechanical minion protoptimus when I get it at 4th level and now maybe I'll name it Hal especially if we are going to have a Dave and no one else can tell my minion what to do so if Dave tried to tell the Minion what to do he could say, "I'm sorry I can't do that Dave"

DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 2:07:32 PM
META-HUMOOOOOR!

*air guitar solo*

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 2:21:13 PM
Hugh, added your votes to my post above.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 2:34:58 PM
Items we need to discuss before we start:

PC Sheet Vetting.

Die rolling to set the DMing order.

PC Death. The "usual" rule is that if you die, your body floats back to the Ghost, and you can be raised there. [I seem to recall that the Ghost cook uses a special yeast to help you rise*.] However, we also have the reserve list, so we want to give others the chance to come in and play. Of course, we can just bring in new players anytime we want, don't need a death to do that. ALSO we could also break the GG rule and allow raises via raise dead in the Tap (no visit to Gargul, just use the core rules). Thoughts?

Wealth & Gear. I think we'll let Rob as "Charlie" bring us up to WBL as needed. However, I do not want us to be bothering the Catacombs staff to buy stuff. So do we want to just be content with what we get in game? Let Rob be an in-game CC clerk of sorts (if he even wants to). Let Charlie give us bonus items of our own desire instead of wealth? Thoughts?

*Okay, I just made that up, but I'm totes magotes using it next chance I get.

DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 4:14:14 PM
PC Death - Cut out Gargul

Shopping - I would say having the current DM approve the purchase would be best, with all purchases posted on the tap board.

SteveM 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 4:57:19 PM
I can safely vote Yes for Tanner and Kathy.

Knowing Cayzle, I'm looking for the detail I somehow missed that makes the character ultra-min/maxed. Since i haven't found it by now, I might as well vote Yes for the greensinger as well.

Death? Either the "usual" rule or allow raise dead in the Tap. Which I assume means we'll have to find access to it in the Tap somehow.

Gear? I wouldn't want to bother CC staff, nor do I want to rely on random dungeons containing "the right stuff." I'm not opposed to taking a percentage of the value of the stuff we do find and using it to outfit ourselves when we level up.

Kathy 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 5:13:26 PM
See, I just figure Cayzle will be playing a broken minmaxed character and there's nothing I can do about it so I might as well just go with it. :)

Sheet vetting: everybody is responsible for vetting one other person's sheet? And people can do more than one if they want, but they have to do at least the one they're assigned?

PC Death: Handle it here on the board, no Gargul visit necessary, we either cast the spell or pay to have it done.

Wealth & Gear: Agree that we shouldn't bug the Catacomb's staff. It might be fun to have a kind of "Catacombs street fair" between modules where we can buy, sell, and upgrade gear. We can vet each other's purchases.

Mitch 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 6:32:19 PM
On death we can just handle it here like every other Pathfinder/D&D game in existence.

As for loot, I'm with Kathy, we should just have a space we can buy things between modules. Leaving it for in game might not work as we'll be playing a wide variety of setting and modules and just trusting drops I can't see working out. Every DM has a different idea on loot, and with shuffling DM's and modules we'll almost certainly get terrible loot drops here and there and need to do some between module fixing and shopping. Especially since this is a tap and we're all or almost all DM's already. We have enough time spent making interesting loot drops for our actual games much less one for the tap as well when it's our turn in the chair. Simplest option is to take whatever drops then between modules set people who are behind to WBL and let them go nuts buying whatever they want/need.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Tuesday June 16th, 2020 7:16:37 PM
VOTING PROGRESS
===== ===== ===== =====

Tanner | DAVE | Mantid (custom race) Monk (Tetori Archetype)

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Cayzle | Zeoll | The Greensinger

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Kathy| Honor Bright | Aasimar Paladin

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

We need proposals from Kim, Steve, and Hugh. Steve, what you posted looked pretty good. Did you have changes? Revisions? At the least, I urge you to follow my lead and make both of your classes favored. Hugh I know is hard at work. Kim I'm worried about. Kim? Kim? You out there?

SteveM 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 12:00:10 AM
Let's make this the formal proposal:

Elron will be an avian beastfolk, per Wold rules. The twist comes with his class... a multi-classed standard Monk/standard Barbarian with the following advantages and disadvantages.

Advantages:
* As the character progresses, he may use feats and barbarian rage powers from the APG. He may also gain feats normally restricted to fighters using his character level instead of fighter level.
* Elron has damage reduction equal to half his barbarian level (round fractions down) instead of the normal barbarian damage reduction progression.
* Receives favored class benefits for both monk and barbarian.

Disadvantages:
* Elron's Monk and Barbarian classes must always remain within one level of each other.
* Elron does not gain a feat at character level 1.
* Elron is proficient with only bludgeoning melee weapons that are among his class proficiencies unless he uses feats to acquire other weapon proficiencies.

Other:
* Elron has a monk weapon, reskinned from a nunchaku, that appears to be a club about two inches thick and four inches wide and does not provide a bonus to disarm.


Jeremy  
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 7:02:37 AM
Just reading some of your PC ideas, and dang if I don’t want to join this menagerie as some as I’m freed up a bit!

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 7:17:20 AM
LOL! Jeremy, welcome.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 8:01:12 AM
Steve, your proposal seems fine as is (I would vote yes), but I have suggestions and questions.

Are you allowed to take classes or prestige classes other than monk and barbarian?

I was worried about the DR, but then I compared with a regular barbarian, assuming Elron starts as a barbarian and grabs a barb level every odd level:

LVL .....Core Barb ..... Elron
..1........DR 0............DR 0
..2........DR 0............DR 0
..3........DR 0............DR 1
..4........DR 0............DR 1
..5........DR 0............DR 1
..6........DR 0............DR 1
..7........DR 1............DR 2
..8........DR 1............DR 2
..9........DR 1............DR 2
.10........DR 2............DR 2
.11........DR 2............DR 3
.12........DR 2............DR 3
.13........DR 3............DR 3
.14........DR 3............DR 3
.15........DR 3............DR 4
.16........DR 4............DR 4
.17........DR 4............DR 4
.18........DR 4............DR 4
.19........DR 5............DR 5
.20........DR 5............DR 5

There's not much difference there. At higher levels, there is no benefit. In order to actually have a benefit at all levels, maybe you want to make your DR equal to 1 + half barb levels? Or just a third of character level?

In fact, Steve, if you compare yours to mine, note that you are not leveraging any synergies of putting these two classes together.

Can you use ki while raging? Make sure the answer is yes.

What if you gave up your barbarian +10 move bonus, but your barbarian levels stack with monk levels to advance your monkish move rate?

You could choose to discard abilities you do not like in order to boost those you do. For example, you could delete trap sense and stack levels for slow fall. Or vice versa.

What if you combined your ki and your rage rounds into one common pool? ("Kriage"?) Less bookkeeping! Maybe you use your character level to determine when you gain ki and rage powers, not your separate class levels. When you take the Extra Rage / Extra Ki feats, you add 4 to your common pool. Maybe you can't use Kriage when you are fatigued. Would you give something else up to gain this?

Depending on your alignment (I presume not lawful?) you might lose the Lawful Ki power usually gained by level 10 monks.

Mitch 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 8:31:15 AM
For my twin pair, I want them to have some sort of bonus for being together that they lose when separated. The idea is to balance the bonus so that playing them together as intended is useful and matches the power of lost racials while separating them has to have a price so it's not better to play them as 2 PC's all the time. I also don't want to make it to specific to a specific build - like Cayzle was talking about a races abilities should be a spread, not a focused "I am god at x tactic".

If flanking resistance and quick draw aren't good enough to match the feat and skill point per level of the human race what are some feasible alternatives I can add in?



Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 8:56:07 AM
Mitch, how are you resolving the inherent advantage of getting to run two characters (double the action economy)? Ideas:

- Each one has only 1+half the party's level.At level 1, both at first. At level 2, both at second. Level 4, both third. Level 6, both 4th. And so on up to level 20, both eleventh. This would include defensive bonuses like sharing a common hp pool and mental attacks only work if both fail the save.
- Both are the same level as the overall party, entirely seperate from each other, but must multiclass at even character levels into NPC classes.
- Twinned Souls class idea I had on June 11.
- Go ranger/druid/bloodwitch/paladin and change the companion to a humanoid. That probably leaves one twin way weaker than the other though.
- Make two PCs with half as many points for stats and a shared item budget. That might be way too weak early and way too strong later though as they pick up more class features.
- Create a single duel wielding pc role played as two characters each making an attack and occupying the same space in combat. Probably one of the simplest possible executions but prevents me from specializing the two of them.

=====

What about the idea of putting both twins in the same space? You could make it neutral on balance. For example,

They can occupy the same square as desired -- and get their special bonus -- but when they are in the same square, the squeezing rule applies: -4 on attacks and -4 on AC. That's a HUGE penalty, so the benefit can be correspondingly large. +6 on saves and damage rolls? (bigger bonuses because your AC and attacks are more frequently accessed than your saves and damages, for example, Power Attack and Deadly Aim, where the bonus to damage is larger than the penalty to hit). Open to ideas!

Jeremy  
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 10:13:59 AM
I would really like to play my Catacomb’s NPC, who actually started out as an NPC I created for Tree, Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier, who is a Druid/Greenmage. I started by using the states for a Tarsier, a CR 1/6th creature, and added the Simple Advanced Template, Making it a CR 1/5, and then applied the awaken spell Minus the +2 hit dice, then simply added the appropriate levels of Druid and Greenmage.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 11:10:37 AM
Love that idea, Jeremy!

If you were to write that out in the format of a core race, what would it look like? Stats? Natural AC? Natural weapons? Climb speed? Size and move rate? Would you be a "magical beast"? Special abilities?

You could take three racial hit dice as "levels" if you wanted to. That's not a powerful option, so it might balance your PC if the other stuff seems powerful.

Kathy 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 1:49:07 PM
but when they are in the same square, the squeezing rule applies: -4 on attacks and -4 on AC. That's a HUGE penalty

Only to certain character classes. A couple of sorcerers would merrily Fireball til the cows came home, not bothered in the slightest by the -4 to attacks they're not taking.

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 1:54:41 PM
@Kathy they'll fireball until the cows come home or their enemies...

-4 to AC on a squishy caster class isn't great when the enemies are close enough to hit you

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 2:12:24 PM
Even mages have touch attacks. And I think Mitch was pondering having them have different classes?

If they were both casters, you might get some cool co-casting going Mitch. Like twin one casts and twin two gives up spell slots for metamagic for the other twin's spell.

Mitch 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 2:44:05 PM
Remember I already put down this...

Never One...: The Twins count as a single target and occupy a single 5 foot space. They only take a single turn and act as one PC as long as they remain together. Changing weapons is a free action for them once per turn (representing them trading off rather than drawing a new weapon) and they cannot be flanked by fewer then 3 opponents. They cannot be separated unwillingly unless rendered helpless.

...Without the other When the Twins are separate they lose their defense against flanking and ability to switch weapons as a free action. Each twin can act independently and are a separate target, but their health, BAB, and caster level are cut in half until they reunite.

Which answers a lot of your questions. The idea was these would replace 2 racial skills and I could differentiate them by multi classing or picking a flexible class they can perform two roles. However it seems a little weak which we both commented on so my question was how can we make it stronger without making it broken?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 3:13:40 PM

Okay, "Never One ... the Other" seems fine as extra / replacement racial abilities. But the balance issue hinges on the mechanics of playing two PCs. See the six ideas in my post above.

Sounds like you want three PC sheets ... for combined, then for each alone? How do you figure levels, gear, etc? I guess I need an extended example of what you are going for.

=====

And what does "The Twins count as a single target" mean? If I cast Mage Armor on one, does it affect the other? If I cast Haste -- "Targets one creature/level" -- is that one creature or two?

What about Scorching Ray -- "The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously." One target or two?

This whole "count as a single target" idea is problematic, I think? Maybe I do not understand.

Kathy 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 3:52:05 PM
Maybe "count as a single creature" is better than "count as a single target?"

Mitch 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 6:38:27 PM
No no, I'm trying to simplify things not complicate them. Rather then come up with complex rules that cause a shifting power structure that we all have to remember over how long this thing lasts I'm going to make a single, relatively straightforward custom race/template I apply to a single character to turn the character into a pair of twins.

I do need to change the wording to "count as a single creature". The inspiration is the Kindred from League of Legends. Twin aspects of death, two halves of a single whole, they are a single champion controlled by a single player but are two separate characters, weaving their abilities together to kill their foes.

So to make my twins I will make a single PC. Say a human warrior. I will apply my template, those two racial features I listed, making the character a twin human warrior (replacing two normal racial abilities of humans, say bonus feat and skill points per level). It will still be one character sheet, with a single class at level 1 (the option to multiclass of course), same number of HP, skill points, etc. etc., but they can change weapons freely and have a flanking defense bonus. That's the only difference mechanically. At all times while together they will be treated as a single creature and a single character - single target spells will affect both, they won't take bonus damage from AoE, they won't get extra actions. RP fluff will be about them working together to accomplish things, from attacks to spell casting to saves (Bob shields his twin Joe from the fireball, taking the brunt of it. In perfect sinc Joe twists around as the fire fades to send a fireball back at the enemy)

Now there are situations where this whole 2 characters 1 creature thing falls apart. Say they're captured by an enemy who wants to put each PC in a separate cell. Do they get chained up together despite all logic? For those situations we have the 2nd trait which covers when they're separated. To make it fair, they're severely weakened, with half the HP and damage output - I was going to just put half attack rolls but realized that would make them OP as casters so halved their caster level as well. I will still be using that single sheet, just modifying their actions until they can rejoin each other - which they will want to do as quickly as possible.

Now there will be situations where the 2 in 1 thing is an advantage, like if they're sure they're safe and need to make crafting checks or something. Still it doesn't seem like that big of a deal that they can make two swords at the same time considering the DM can always drop an ambush on them while they're separated and weakened (not to mention crafting time is rarely a serious problem in my experience - still have to pay for those two swords!).

Mitch 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 6:42:40 PM
So my question is if the flanking bonus, free weapon swapping, and situational weakened bonus actions is mechanically balanced compared to the loss of two other racials? Take human bonus feat and extra traits as a baseline as they'll likely be humans losing those bonuses. If undertuned, what other bonus can they have to not make them too strong? If overtuned, what other stats need to be nerfed if they for some reason become seperated and get bonus actions? Maybe the loss of 1 racial or 3 racials instead of 2?

Mitch 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 6:54:16 PM
Maybe it should be "Half caster level or saving throw, whichever is worse". Touch/attack spells are covered by Bab (maybe that should be attack?), but they could say spam magic missile level 1 or 2 without it affecting them much (wait that works regardless). Really I don't plan on splitting them up much at all, I just want to cover all the bases. The idea is to weaken them by half if an enemy manages to render them helpless and separate them

Jeremy  
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 7:04:20 PM
Here is a write up for an Awakened Tarsier, assuming it was a normal playable race.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c9PyWhdLmYJqMi4PtkN85BwX-j21SfsTlIqL_KmD4Y/edit

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 7:39:20 PM
Jeremy, is that what you WANT or what you thought would work in the race builder? Because if I were doing a conversion, based this reference to the Paizo Ultimate Wilderness book, I'd end up with this:

Awakened Tarsier
Diminutive magical beast
Low-Light Vision
Speed 20 ft., Climb 20 ft.
Melee bite: 1d2
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Ability Score Modifiers: -6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis
Racial Skill Modifiers: +4 Acrobatics, +4 Climb, +4 Perception
Tarsier’s Leap (Ex): A tarsier’s long hind limbs make it an excellent leaper. A tarsier attempts Acrobatics checks to jump as though it had a running start and doesn’t take a penalty on Acrobatics checks to jump from having a slow base speed.

And of course, yes, Diminutive grants all this: +4 size bonus to AC and attack rolls, but take a -4 on CMB, and CMD. They gain a +6 bonus to all fly checks, and a +12 to stealth checks. They take up a 1 ft space and have no reach, requiring them to occupy the same space of an enemy to attack them. They use dex instead of str for climb and swim checks.

I like +4 Perception and Low-Light Vision more than Darkvision and Scent. Those eyes!

The big question: Are either of these actually playable? Well, it depends on your build. What class/classes are you planning?

Note even if you spent five points on Str for a 14, and ended up at 8, using the encumbrance rules, you end up with a light load of 6.5 pounds. You do not want a medium load because it slows you down more (to move 15) and imposes a max dex bonus of +3. A Handy Haversack weighs 5 lbs, no matter what size. The smallest Bag of Holding weighs 15. A portable hole is weightless but a pain to get stuff out of.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 7:54:02 PM
Mitch, I think I'm getting it. You just really want to PLAY one character but ROLEPLAY two? And the only mechanics you want are the Quickdraw feat and not flankable unless three foes can reach you.

But what about when roleplaying a separation is necessary? That's super easy to resolve: When separated, one twin, rolled randomly, goes unconscious. Bada bing, bada boom, you're done.

As for the mechanics, that's easy too. Start with a human base. Take Quickdraw for your bonus feat. Losing all your bonus skills or your +2 ability score bonus is too much. I would make it this:

Immune to flanking
Base move: 20.

The speed reduction makes sense because you have to be careful not to trip over each other. The immune to flanking is both easier to adjudicate, and a better balancer for a -10 move penalty.

TWIN HUMANS
Bonus feat: Quickdraw
Base Move: 20 ft.
Immune to Flanking
[In all other regards, use mechanics for a single human. If the twins are "seperated" then one becomes unconscious; the other loses the bonus feat and the immunity to flanking, but retains the move penalty out of habit.]

SO SO EASY!

Jeremy  
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 8:35:10 PM
I used the Pazio race building rules, for balance reasons, but your build makes sense, and makes for more potential, assuming he isn’t required to stick to the no score lower than 8 rule. Honestly, a strength of 8 would be pretty unrealistic for a creature that normally has a strength of 3. Wiz-Bang is a Druid/Greenmage, so he always has a companion to do the heavy lifting. I don’t see him so much as a powerhouse, since without his spells he would be kinda useless in a fight, however he would be crazy wise, and nimble, so his spells and AC would be pretty beast, and he has his companion to fight for him.

I mainly want to play him because I fell in love with the little guy after introducing him in Tree, which is why I chose him as my Catacombs NPC. His exuberant personality, third person speech, and flat out cuteness really won me over.

X (working name) | Hugh - research 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 9:09:37 PM
So I think I finished the mechanical minion section, and the utility belt section. I also added an ability that lets the technomancer do quick repairs and works on the minion.

I also added an ability unlocked at higher levels where the minion turns into power armor.

I think I need a capstone and I had a few ideas for some other class abilities to round it out revolving around modifying devices in other ways (potentially like meta magic) or maybe throw in trap finding but at a higer level than when a rogue get it?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 9:24:55 PM
Jeremy, plus you can wildshape if you need to be big. There's also a level 13 druid ability that lets you assume the form of a person ("A thousand faces" -- though if you go 10/10 you won't get that.)

You need to be aware of the core rule for polymorphing when your native form is smaller than small. First, you add 6 Str and subtract 4 Dex, then apply the usual ability score mods based on the spell.

Produce Flame is really going to be a great go-to spell for you.

The only question remaining now is ... would an Awakened Tarsier Druid/Greenmage be balanced using these rules?

=====

Awakened Tarsier
Diminutive magical beast
Low-Light Vision
Speed 20 ft., Climb 20 ft.
Melee bite: 1d2
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Ability Score Modifiers: -6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis
Racial Skill Modifiers: +4 Acrobatics, +4 Climb, +4 Perception
Tarsier’s Leap (Ex): A tarsier’s long hind limbs make it an excellent leaper. A tarsier attempts Acrobatics checks to jump as though it had a running start and doesn’t take a penalty on Acrobatics checks to jump from having a slow base speed.
Diminutive size rules: +4 size bonus to AC and attack rolls, but take a -4 on CMB, and CMD. They gain a +6 bonus to all fly checks, and a +12 to stealth checks. They take up a 1 ft space and have no reach, requiring them to occupy the same space of an enemy to attack them. They use dex instead of str for climb and swim checks. ALSO note that being little hurts your Intimidate skill and cuts your armor bonuses in half.

My personal opinion? It is a bit overpowered. +4 to hit and +4 ac are SO sweet. The stealth bonuses are to die for -- are you planning to put ranks in stealth? The lack of reach is no penalty if you are only using spells and ranged attacks, and your companion.

I have two suggestions:
Racial Skill Modifiers: +1 Acrobatics, +1 Climb, +1 Perception
And/or possibly: Con -2

(I read in real life that in captivity tarsiers do very poorly, get stressed out, and tend to "commit suicide" by banging their heads on the wall or floor, and their skulls are so thin they can crack their own skulls that way! Sorry, sad to put that factoid into your imagination. Also, their eyes get sick if they do not eat the right bugs [DnD solution to that is goodberries]. Point being, sounds like -2 Con to me!)

Let's get some other opinions than mine. I have a loud mouth, but I'm just one voice. What do the rest of ya think about balancing Jeremy's Awakened Tarsier?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 9:27:22 PM
Sounds like it is coming along, Hugh. Let us know when you have it ready to vet. And add a link.

Mitch 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 11:10:13 PM
I did think of the passing out if they're separated angle, but it feels super thematically weird to me. They get separated and suddenly half the pair is fighting as effectively as the two fought together? Sure they lose the quick draw and can be flanked now, but that hardly affects the fighting prowess of the awake twin. It also leaves one helpless. Sure if enemy action renders them helpless and seperatable then they could be killed anyway, but there are reasons other then enemy action they could be separated and when they are I still want to play both, just in a weakened state so I can't just separate them to abuse the fact there's two of them.

Don't get me wrong it could totally work, but that feels to me more like a healthy twin supporting and being helped by a sick/weakened twin. One relies on the other to do things and is helpless without them, though they can help their stronger sibling some. I was more aiming for two people of equal skill being so perfectly in tune they can act as one unit.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 17th, 2020 11:24:44 PM
Well, it is MUCH more of a PITA, but it seems to me that the only way to do what you are saying is to make two character sheets. Make two characters, split the levels evenly, two different sheets, etc.

If it happens in an adventure. then split any current damage evenly ... split used spell slots and uses per day appropriately. Split items worn/carried. Heck this is a REAL PITA.

Are you sure you do not want to go the unconscious route? SO much easier. And if you pick the unconscious one randomly, then one is not weaker than the other, since next time it may well be the other way around. PLUS, you can impose a penalty on the one left conscious after splitting ... sickened, maybe? "Sickened: The character takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks." That makes sense and disincentivizes you against splitting.

Still, if you want to make two characters at half the level of the gestalt, that's an option.

Mitch 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 7:00:01 AM
Why can't my method of them both working off the same sheet but at half strength if separated work?

Jeremy  
Thursday June 18th, 2020 7:04:54 AM
I could add a few weaknesses such as an Awakened Tarsier can’t ware armor, which would some what balance out the +4 AC bonus for being diminutive, since the only way his AC could improve at that point would be through magical means. The +4 to attack is only a boon at lower levels, when dealing with ranged touch attacks, as the higher level no longer require a attack role, so I don’t see how that is a true game breaker, especially since the damage produced by those spells is so limited. I would probably put ranks in stealth, since his high bonus would make him a grand sneaker, which would be far more beneficial to a rogue, but none the less should be tempered with something. I was thinking of restricting them to only being able to use Woldian animal magical item slots, forcing him to buy slotless versions of common things such as a cloak of resistance, and unable to ware rings.

Of course this is all mute if he has to stick to the no score lower then 8 rule, as it would completely destroy the character in my eyes. I can only suspend my disbelief so far, if a Tarsier is required to be the same strength as a common gnome or halfling, that ruins it for me, and I would be forced to come up with a different PC concept, as using close to half my point buy to bolster a stat that is of zero value and takes away from the PC’s original concept is pretty harsh.

Wiz-bang is supposed to be good with his spells, but too physically inept to be of much value elsewhere, but his cuteness and the usefulness of his size, makes up for it.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 7:49:14 AM
A druid could be making touch attacks his whole career: Produce Flame, Flame Blade, Poison, Rusting Grasp, and Fire Seeds are all touch attack spells, and that +4 will come in handy. But that said, you have some good ideas there too.

I don't see any reason to stick to the "no score lower than 8" rule. The whole idea of the Twist is to break the rules!

But honestly, I don't want to be the judge. Mitch, comment on Jeremy's stuff; Jeremy, comment on Mitch's! Let's get more opinions, please!



SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 11:39:18 AM
Cayzle's comments are addressed in the link above, along with the proposal as previously stated. Appreciate the feedback.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 11:40:28 AM
Yeah, but hows about commenting on the twins or on the tarsier? :-)

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 11:44:50 AM
After looking at Steve's doc ... Okay, Steve, but are you modifying your twist at all based on my feedback? LOL No problem if the answer is no!

:-)

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 1:15:16 PM
Gee, Mike, when I said "Appreciate the feedback," I was referring to the feedback you'd already given. And no, I didn't make any changes to what I had proposed earlier. But I did explain that I'd considered the points you made.

Jeremy  
Thursday June 18th, 2020 1:16:54 PM
Mitch, here’s an observation: with two bodies, there should be a penalty to making physical skill checks (skillls based on a physical ability score) and with two brains, there should be a bonus for mental skill checks (skills that use a mental ability score). The reason being it takes more effort for two people to swim, or hide, ECT than one, and two minds can assist each other. A simple solution would be to roll all skill checks twice, and if it’s a physical skill, take the lower number, and if it’s a mental skill, use the bigger number.

Other than that, I like your concept, and see no reason you can’t use just one character sheet cutting everything in half when separated , I see no imbalance. Another way you could do that is if they are separated, you cut your level in 1/2 (rounded down) and sense I’m sure they will be beyond level 1 by the time we join, that would work as well. Cayzle’s idea of the quick draw feat, slow speed, and flank immunity also make a lot of sense.



Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 2:28:52 PM
Steve LOLOL! Sounds like you are ready for a vote, then.

VOTING PROGRESS
===== ===== ===== =====

Tanner | DAVE | Mantid (custom race) Monk (Tetori Archetype)

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Cayzle | Zeoll | The Greensinger

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Kathy| Honor Bright | Aasimar Paladin

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Steve | Elron | Monk/Barbarian

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh:
Tanner:
Kathy:
Steve: Yes
Kim:

I'm thinking we should add Jeremy and Mitch to the voting rolls for their twist proposals. So gents, when you are ready, post your final twist proposals and we'll vote.

I wonder if Kim will join us. I've emailed him.

Kathy 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 3:24:19 PM
Mitch, maybe when the twins are separated, they really just want to get back to each other? Like, there's a psychological/emotional toll when they're apart. Maybe they take -2 to all checks? Or maybe they act almost as if they were under a Command spell--they need to make a Will save or they'll try to reach the other one, even if it's a really bad idea, or it puts them in danger?

I don't know, just throwing out ideas.

Jeremy  
Thursday June 18th, 2020 5:32:27 PM
Here is my proposal for my twist

Awakened Tarsier
Diminutive magical beast
Low-Light Vision
Speed 20 ft., Climb 20 ft.
Melee bite: 1d2
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Ability Score Modifiers: -6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis
Racial Skill Modifiers: +4 Acrobatics, +4 Climb, +4 Perception

Tarsier’s Leap (Ex): A tarsier’s long hind limbs make it an excellent leaper. A tarsier attempts Acrobatics checks to jump as though it had a running start and doesn’t take a penalty on Acrobatics checks to jump from having a slow base speed.

Diminutive grants all this: +4 size bonus to AC and attack rolls, but take a -4 on CMB, and CMD. They gain a +6 bonus to all fly checks, and a +12 to stealth checks. They take up a 1 ft space and have no reach, requiring them to occupy the same space of an enemy to attack them. They use dex instead of str for climb and swim checks

Awakened Tarsiers can’t wear armor or carry a shield, and can only use magical item slots allotted to Woldian animals. (belts, chest, eyes, head, headband, and neck)

Awakened Tarsiers can break the no ability score lower then 8 rule, but only for their strength, which can’t drop below 4


Mitch 
Thursday June 18th, 2020 7:40:07 PM
@Jeremy - I did consider something like that, also bonuses to defense or offence as they confused the enemy with swapping places. A flat bonus of some sort just makes them amazing at mental checks while they'd ignore physical ones. I'd just focus on what they get bonuses in and ignore what they got negatives in, it's not like a single PC is likely to be screwed due to a bad skill check most of the time.

Also the rolling twice thing is how a lot of things are handled by 5e. Flanking? Roll twice, use the better. Thinking under pressure? Roll twice, use the worse. It's really strong, way more then a +2 to say all physical skills.

Cutting a whole char sheet in half works, but can take time and be confusing. What feats do the lose? Do they lose their level bonus to stats? I'd basically have to make a 2nd, halved character sheet. I tried ti simulate half level by cutting all of their combat based stats by half instead (except for AC, so that they wouldn't die to a stiff breeze)

@Kathy - I'm probably going to roleplay it that way. I'm thinking roleplaying it as them always being together, refusing to separate, and having extreme anxiety when apart. Maybe to the point of physical illness, which disrupts their combat effectiveness. Mostly I want them to have the ability to separate so the DM can take them apart and have them rejoining being a whole thing, and so they can make the occasional heroic effort to separate from each other for something so vastly important it trumps their need to stay together. Nothing will say "Big deal" quite like the twins willingly separating to handle a problem.

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Friday June 19th, 2020 12:28:39 AM
Mitch, it seems that separating wouldn't have to be difficult bookkeeping if they are different classes. That would virtually already be separate.

Y (Kim)  Note to self: Don't post main content here.
Friday June 19th, 2020 2:39:22 AM
I like Tanner's suggestion of the Jotun race. Should the rest of the group feel he - or should it be she? - might fit in, I'll go that direction.

Sorry for being so quiet here. I mentioned to Cayzle a bit of what's taking up my time, more than usual. By next week, or the week after, things should have settled down a fair bit.

All right. Gender? Will think on that. And that will tie into the naming of this adventurer of grand proportions.

Regarding voting on the proposals, additional apologies. I wish to take the time to read through the proposals before voting (though it looks like most have enough votes as is) - by Sunday evening, I'll be there.

But I'll put in a vote for Zeoll now. I've known him almost my whole life here in the Wold.

[Ha! I almost posted this whole thing in the Die Rolls window!]

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Friday June 19th, 2020 12:23:14 PM
Kim, just to be clear.

The Jotun idea is that you start with this: Jotun race:

Then you take this as your class: Jotun Paragon Class. Note: You are not locked into this class. You can multiclass per usual. But you should probably take this for the first level or two at least for flavor.

(FYI, if you want to spend $10 on the original PDF, you can find it at DriveThruRPG.com.)

===== ===== =====

Now, let me take a close look at this option and give you my two cents.

....

Okay, the good: I like the flavor. I like the mechanics. I like the links to elements and other giant types. The base race is underpowered, which makes up for a chunk of the OP in the class.

And the bad: I compare this with the monk, and I see that the jotun class is more powerful.

Monk1 has attacks at -1/-1 for 1d6 damage with Wis bonus to AC.
Jotun1 has attacks at +0/+0 for 1d6 damage and +4 nat AC bonus (and can wear armor also).

That discrepancy increases since the Str bonuses pile up fast and the nat AC bonuses also grow fast.

Monk10 has attacks at +8/+8/+3/+3 for 1d10 with Wis bonus +2 to AC.
Jotun 10 has attacks at +10/+10 for 2d6+3 with Nat bonus +8 to AC (and can wear armor also).

Jotun start at medium size, and grow to large at level 3, huge at level 10, gargantuan at level 16, and colossal at level 20. They have the special power to be able to shrink by one size category.

My opinion: The Jotun class is playable with a few modifications: (1) Cut bonuses to Strength and Con and Natural AC in half. (2) Limit progress to level 10, maybe level 15. Huge is fine. No need to grow bigger than that. (3) Note that magic cannot be used to grow even bigger. (4) Only light armor may be worn, and if a shield is used, then only one slam per round may be made.

===== ===== =====

I note that for ALL twists, we should evaluate them from time to time (at the end of each module, say) and be open to surgery if the power balance turns out to be off.

X (working name) | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Friday June 19th, 2020 9:42:03 PM
I haven't made my character yet but I thought I'd put forth the class and if it was approved then I'd make the character as I don't know what the approval process would result in changing.

Any character I make is currently planning to take all levels in technomancer.

I vote yes on Elron

Kathy 
Friday June 19th, 2020 11:12:57 PM
I vote yes on Elron and on Jeremy's unnamed tarsier.



DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Friday June 19th, 2020 11:31:52 PM
Elron YES
Jeremy Tarsier YES

Y (Kim) 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 3:41:20 AM

Cayzle - aren't monks considered to be underpowered compared to other existing classes?

Mitch 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 8:59:52 AM
Alright I think I'm going to put mine up for vote. A lot of interesting ideas have been suggested but I think I prefer the simplicity and ability for interesting split adventures of my original proposal, though with some modifications.

Twist: The Twins - The following will be added to a base race replacing two racial abilities

Never One...: The Twins count as a single creature and occupy a single 5 foot space. They only take a single turn and act as one PC as long as they remain together. Changing weapons is a free action for them once per turn (representing them trading off rather than drawing a new weapon) and they cannot be flanked. They cannot be separated unwillingly unless rendered helpless.

...Without the other: When the Twins are separate they lose their defense against flanking and ability to switch weapons as a free action. Each twin can act independently and are a separate target, but their health, BAB, save DC on spells cast, and caster level are cut in half until they reunite.

RP note: The twins will not willingly separate short of "Press these two buttons at the same time or the world ends" situation. Separations will be/should be extremely rare and dramatic, either to highlight how desperate a situation is or due to enemy action to cause a mad scramble as they try to reunite.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 10:06:13 AM

Mitch, I gotta vote no until I get a few questions answered. All about separating, which is sucky, because I get that they won't be separating.

Say that together they have 45 of 90 hp. When they split, each one now has 22 of 45?

Say together they have 2 magic missiles and a web spell prepped. When they split, who has what spells?

Say together they have used 2 of 5 channels, or 7 of 12 rounds of bard perform or barb rage. When they split, what happens? What's the bookkeeping when they come back together?

I hate to pick nits, but I see that this might come up more than you anticipate. What if they are tripped or bull-rushed or grappled? Does that separate them? What game mechanic would make them separate?

Honestly, can we just go with "No game mechanic can seperate them, because what happens to one happens to the other. Also, no roleplay scenario results with seperation, as it never occurs to anyone with whome they interact." Just don't have seperation.

Mitch 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 10:38:48 AM
Hp question - yes
spells/class features - for simplicity sake I won't track their class features separately. That just gets into creating two entire char sheets for them. They'll both pull from their class features and when they're out they are out. So in your examples they have 5 channels left. They spend two rounds each casting magic missile and channeling leaving them with no magic missiles left and 3 more channels. Considering that they'll be half as effective with each of those casts it shouldn't be a huge balance problem.

combat maneuvers - I debated letting them get separated by combat maneuvers that cause movement. However that leaves them open to an enemy bull rushing them to separate them then his friends 1 shotting the solo twin. Due to the nature of play by post they wouldn't even get a chance to defend themselves against it. Simplest answer is that when bull rushed both get knocked back (one is behind the other and they're both shoved) and when grappled one is being grabbed and the other is panicking and trying to free their twin (IE taking the single action allowed while grappled to either try to free them or make an attack).

There are still lots of ways to separate them, just not so much in combat. Fall into a rushing river and are swept away? Separated. Threatened by overwhelming force and surrendering? separated. Fey trickster teleport the party randomly while they're dozing off? separated. Basically the idea is in combat they are a single unit and they can't just be split up and slaughtered with a few decent checks or a teleport spell, but out of combat if the DM wants to separate them then just set up a situation where they can't feasibly resist it or move to reunite immediately.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 11:16:05 AM
Okay, cool, that answers my questions. Put that in your proposal and I'm ready to vote yes. With that RP note, I'm totes happy.

In essence, when you separate, the only bookkeeping is hot points. And when seperate, you basically gain double action economy for massive penalties. Fair enough, and it will come up rarely-to-never.

Note that the first power DOES confer game benefits. The second seems more like penalties and bonus for a net power neutral.

Um ... one more caveat ... Can we reserve a final vote for you to say what racial powers they replace? If you are replacing human feat and skill ranks, that a lot. If you are replacing half-elf having two favored classes and you only plan to have one favored class anyway, that's bogus.

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 11:16:51 AM
For the awakened tarsier...

I like the concept, but have a couple of questions.
* Did you look at the "magical beast" template when creating the awakened tarsier? I ask because of the choice of low-light vs. darkvision.
* What language(s) does the character know? I assume it speaks as well as understanding one.
* Is the character going to base HP, saves, skills, etc. purely on class(es) taken -- like the player races do -- or will it have a "class" of magical beast at first?
* When riding a Jotun cross-country, does a tarsier prefer to perch on the shoulder or have some sort of saddle?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 11:20:36 AM
Steve, LOL! The question is, when he's riding his small bird companion that is perched on the Jotun's shoulder ...

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 11:41:18 AM
Steve, The Awakened Tarsier named Wiz-Bang uses class HD, saves ECT, and speaks common, albeit somewhat broken, speaks in third person, and doesn’t use contractions. (Says can not instead of can’t, ECT...) since he’s a Druid, he can also speak Druidic, but that’s it.

Technically magical beasts get both lowlight vision and dark vision, unless otherwise noted. I originally gave him only darkvision, but Cayzle suggested giving him lowlight and a perception bonus instead, taking advantage of the large eyes of a tarsier, thus making it a bit more realistic , and I really liked the idea, though generally I prefer darkvision over lowlight in a PC.

Kathy 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 11:51:41 AM
So...as this party comes together, I'm not seeing a lot of magical healing.

Mitch 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 12:05:17 PM
Don’t we have multiple druids?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 12:05:17 PM
Ha! we got two druids and a paladin. That's fine.

In Keepers, the only healer is a Bloodwitch, and they get along ok.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 12:15:33 PM
Let's update the votes ...

VOTING PROGRESS
===== ===== ===== =====

Tanner | DAVE | Mantid (custom race) Monk (Tetori Archetype)

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Cayzle | Zeoll | Greensinger

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim: Yes

===== ===== ===== =====

Kathy| Honor Bright | Aasimar Paladin

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Steve | Elron | Monk/Barbarian

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Jeremy | Whiz-Bang | Awakened Tarsier (posted above) [RESERVE]

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve:
Kim:
Jeremy: Yes
Mitch:

===== ===== ===== =====

Mitch | The Twins | Twinned Racial Abilities (posted above) [RESERVE]

Cayzle: No (wants slight addition to write-up, needs to know what abilities are replaced)
Hugh:
Tanner:
Kathy:
Steve:
Kim:
Jeremy:
Mitch: Yes

Please look over your votes, fill in blanks, and vote.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 12:36:13 PM
Kim, regarding the monk comparison, I would not say that monks are the weakest class. Also, the jotun magical abilities are on par or stronger than monk ki powers ... But I'm just one vote. What do others think? Make a counter-proposal?

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 3:23:14 PM

Twist: The Twins - The following will be added to a base race replacing two racial abilities

Never One...: The Twins count as a single creature and occupy a single 5 foot space. They only take a single turn and act as one PC as long as they remain together. Changing weapons is a free action for them once per turn (representing them trading off rather than drawing a new weapon) and they cannot be flanked. They cannot be separated unwillingly unless rendered helpless.

...Without the other: When the Twins are separate they lose their defense against flanking and ability to switch weapons as a free action. Each twin can act independently and are a separate target, but their health, BAB, save DC on spells cast, and caster level are cut in half until they reunite.

So... 

It looks like this will modify their racial abilities.  The impact will vary depending on the race chosen, then.  Do you have a race in mind, and which racial abilities will be lost?  The abilities to freely change weapons and to not be flanked are specific actions that are explained by there being two of them.  But in other cases they must act together -- e.g., if one provokes an AOO, they are both subject to it.  One cannot be retrieving an item for use while the other is in combat, except for the noted ability to change weapons.

When the two are combined, you say they occupy a single 5' space, like a M or S creature would.  So there is no change of "size" involved -- it does not become easier to attack them because they are "bigger" together.  Do they have to wear the same armor, or is their combined AC some average of individual ACs?  Do they benefit from sharing a single +1 item?

When things are cut in half, how do you handle fractions?

Likewise, you present it as together they have a single set of abilities, and separately each has half of those abilities.  So together they have classes and levels, and apart each operates at half strength.  Do their ability scores suffer from being halved?  For instance, it they have a BAB of +8/+3 and strength modifier of +2 then together they make attacks at +10/+5 to hit and +2 damage.  Once separated, does this translate to making attacks at +5/+2.5 to hit (half of 10/5) and +1 damage each, or attacks at +6 to hit (1/2 of 8 plus 2, with the second attack lost when the base BAB drops below 6) and +2 damage each?

Then, if they have spells left when they separate, whichever casts first ends up using the slot that they share.  But if their new effective caster level would not have access to a given spell level, they can still cast it... just not as effectively?  And both could be casting at the same time, assuming they have they spells prepped?

Is there any affect other than operating at half power for being separate?

I'm beginning to agree with Cayzle.  If they never separate, it's straightforward, treating them as a new race.  If they can separate, more needs to be spelled out.

I would give this a yes if they don't separate.  If they do separate, I worry that we could "what if" this forever.  How about creating a "separated" condition that strictly limits what they can do while apart -- perhaps while separate one could take a standard action with a -2 penalty on all d20 checks and loss of the flanking/trading benefits, or both can take a move action each round -- and continue to treat them as a gestalt? 

Mitch 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 11:00:57 PM
1 sheet, 1 character, 1 set of magic items. So yes if I buy them +1 armor they are both benefiting from it. They will be human and lose the bonus feat and bonus skill points (I will commit to this as part of the proposal).

Fractions will always be rounded down.

The intent is for them to be at half power offensively when separated, I'm just bad at stating that with the game mechanics. The idea is that the operate as one so much that when separated the anxiety and unfamiliarity with doing things alone throws them off and makes them seriously less effective. For attacks it's easy, make them half a likely to hit. I put BAB when I meant attack. This means that solo they are suddenly incapable of beating enemies with AC appropriate for the level due to being totally unable to hit them. This feels like enough to keep them balanced and make things interested if a DM wants to run a separation plot.

Magic is annoying and complicated and I just don't play that many casters so I'm not sure if I'm nerfing magic right. Most magic scales off caster level and uses either an attack or a save so the idea is to half the ability to attack enemies by halving effective caster levels (effects things that don't allow saves like Magic Missile) and saves (So can't just blow everyone up with a fireball). The idea is not to make them suddenly incapable of casting, just to halve the odds of effective magic.

I'll post a modified version in the morning.

X (working name) | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Saturday June 20th, 2020 11:16:15 PM
Yes on the awakened Tarseir
Mitch - Maybe

I mean I like the together bonus but both Cayzle and Steve raise excellent questions. While you have addressed Cayzle's, Steve raises some excellent points.

For determining halfsies though wouldn't it be rounded down like other Pathfinder abilities?

Do we really need to half ability scores or would it be okay to merely treat them like a single pool of HP and when seperated each get half the hp pool? For the rest CL gets cut in half rounded down, Saves get cut in half rounded down, BAB gets cut in half rounded down and that determines their new attack bonuses with weapons and spells, new CMB, new CMD.

Question: would it make sense that the cost of the twins armor and weapons are the same as for a large creature even though they are medium?

Class abilities remained shared
Ability scores remained shared
AC is interesting; if they wear the same type of armor then AC would theoretically remain unchanged unless you want to cut it in half but as a balancing mechanism isn't penalizing HP, Saves, Skill Checks, attack rolls and CL enough?

As for monks, well no I don't think they are weak. I splashed monk in my dragon disciple to get the speed bonus and unarmored AC bonus from wisdom. Garret Goodbarrel in the Iron Dragons was a halfling monk that was among the hardest to hit of that group and was doing so many attacks per round it was ridiculous not to mention the monk abundant step ability.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 12:56:51 AM
The trouble with cutting things in half is that the secondary numbers get changed too.

Here's my suggestion for the twins:

...Without the other: When the Twins are separate they lose their defense against flanking and ability to switch weapons as a free action. Use the original character sheet for each one. It is as if they duplicated. Use the same hit point tally. Use the same spells available and uses of items and powers per day.

Say the Twins have 50 hp of 60 and two magic missiles left for the day. They separate. One takes 5 damage, one takes ten, so they are down to 35 of 60 hp. They both cast magic missile in the same round. Now they have no spells left. When separated, they are duplicated.

Here's the kicker: When separated, they take a -5 penalty on all d20 rolls, on AC and CMD, and on caster level. (Caster level does not drop below 1.)

How's that?

Imagine Zeoll the Twins. When Zeoll separates, there are now two Zeolls, both using the exact same sheet. Using up hit points, hero points, uses per day, etc etc all get marked off the same sheet. BUT -5 on AC, Caster Level, and all d20 rolls.


Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 10:35:24 AM
I know they take a -5 penalty to AC but they can theoretically separate. Should armor still cost more?

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 1:30:41 PM
Since Hugh’s Technomancer is essentially nothing but an unchained summoner I vote yes. If he went base summoner it would easily been a heck no, as they are way beyond broken, and it was the only unchained class that was designed to nerf the original. (The rest we’re designed to simplify, or beef-up the original)

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 2:00:26 PM
The armor thing is tricky in my mind. Technically, if they are both wearing the same armor, then they shouldn’t take a hit for that, but maybe they could lose their dex bonus due to the awkwardness of being separated. Granted that probably won’t be as big a AC hit as -5, by it would make them easy picking for a rogue.

Mitch 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 3:50:04 PM
You guys are all way more picky as to the details then I am so if -5 is better then halving things to you then I'm fine with switching it. Will that actually get approval from more people though?

Kathy 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 6:20:39 PM
I mean, I'll vote yes on the general idea of a technomancer, but it looks like there are still some specifics to be resolved.

I'm starting to get concerned that my character is going to become the wacky sidekick of group of far more powerful characters with custom-designed everything.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 9:41:31 PM
Nah, you'll be fine Kathy. I'm keeping a close eye on power level. Just ask Tanner, Mitch, Hugh, and Kim!
LOLOL!

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 10:07:10 PM
Yeah Cayzle has been really helpful and I'll take a lot of your suggestions under advisement. Honestly I might get rid of gunsmithing as it is from ultimate combat (as are fire arms in general) and yes guns resolve against touch AC kind of but they seem more trouble than they are worth potentially. They are really heavy and misfire or they are expensive. I mean I was considering taking Gillian's fast forge time as a feat if I was going the gunsmith route but could I switch gunsmithing for something else and replace firearm proficiency with the repeating crossbow or because it is exotic that won't fly?

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Sunday June 21st, 2020 10:52:50 PM
Awakened Tarsier: yes

I got pilled away before I got far into the technomancer. I will look some more tonight.

As for the twins, I'm pretty sure you'll find a way to make it work.

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 3:18:44 AM
You know I was thinking about the armor and I have an alternative proposal to the flat -5 to AC or losing Dex to AC. What if when separated the twins lose their armor proficiency and when buying armor the cost is doubled (kind of like with a double weapon you have to enchant each end separately)

I mean the twins would still be as hard to hit together as they were separated but they take 5 + armor check penalty to attack rolls, and dex based ability and skill checks. If you really wanted to penalize their AC though maybe they also take the armor's armor check penalty to AC as well?

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.

Also Kathy version 2.0 is going to utilize people's feedback.

Mitch 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 5:45:08 AM
No on armor proficiency for a very simple reason - there is no chance we actually remember that when the time comes. Lets say it takes a few modules before a DM decides to split them - in Wold time that's a year or more. A straightforward -5 is easy to remember and apply. Remembering that they are suddenly non-proficient, what that means, and consistently applying it just seems unlikely to me. Not to mention doubling the armor cost just means I can't play them melee because their AC would be so terrible (unlike every other proposal it vastly weakens their base form). It'd just make me play a caster to avoid the issue altogether which defeats the purpose of nerfing them while split.

Never One...: The Twins count as a single creature and occupy a single 5 foot space. They only take a single turn and act as one PC as long as they remain together. Changing weapons is a free action for them once per round (representing them trading off rather than drawing a new weapon) and they cannot be flanked. They cannot be separated unwillingly unless rendered helpless.

...Without the other: When the Twins are separate they lose their defense against flanking and ability to switch weapons as a free action. Use the original character sheet for each one. It is as if they duplicated. Use the same hit point tally. Use the same spells available and uses of items and powers per day.

Say the Twins have 50 hp of 60 and two magic missiles left for the day. They separate. One takes 5 damage, one takes ten, so they are down to 35 of 60 hp. They both cast magic missile in the same round. Now they have no spells left. When separated, they are duplicated.

Here's the kicker: When separated, they take a -5 penalty on all d20 rolls, on AC and CMD, and on caster level. (Caster level does not drop below 1.)

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 7:53:58 AM
Mitch, I vote yes for this latest version of the twins.

With the caveat that applies to ALL of us -- at the end of every module we have the chance to step back and evaluate bogosity. If needed for balance, we can tweak twists and builds then.

===== ===== =====

Hugh, I *really* like repeating crossbow much better than firearms. YES.

===== ===== =====

Super busy with work. I'll repost vote tallies when I can. We need Mister Kim to come vote / comment.

And we need other people than ME to comment on the jotun racial paragon class. Am I wrong about it being OP? Please make some suggestions, disagree with me, etc.

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 10:05:09 AM
I vote yes to Mitch’s latest proposal.

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 10:38:49 AM
I will look at Jotun when I can

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 2:46:22 PM
Let's update the votes ...

VOTING PROGRESS
===== ===== ===== =====

Hugh | Asimov | Technomancer custom class
Cayzle: waiting to see the 2.0 revision
Hugh: Yes
Tanner:
Kathy:
Steve:
Kim:
Jeremy: yes
Mitch:

===== ===== ===== =====

Tanner | DAVE | Mantid (custom race) Monk (Tetori Archetype)

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Cayzle | Zeoll | Greensinger

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim: Yes

===== ===== ===== =====

Kathy| Honor Bright | Aasimar Paladin

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Steve | Elron | Monk/Barbarian

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:

===== ===== ===== =====

Jeremy | Whiz-Bang | Awakened Tarsier (posted above) [RESERVE]

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:
Jeremy: Yes
Mitch:

===== ===== ===== =====

Mitch | The Twins | Twinned Racial Abilities (posted above) [RESERVE]

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh:
Tanner:
Kathy: Yes?
Steve:
Kim:
Jeremy: Yes
Mitch: Yes

Please look over your votes, fill in blanks, and vote.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 4:46:39 PM
My one last question on the Twins. When they split, who gets which item?

Mitch 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 8:05:00 PM
Items will work the same as class abilities for the same reason. Breaking down who has how many arrows or which needs the AC more is way more trouble then it's worth.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 8:27:22 PM
Hugh, I have made my final comment, whew! Please forgive my prolix nature.

Looking forward to seeing which ideas you adopt and which you reject! :-)

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 8:35:05 PM

So if the twins have a +5 sword, when they split, they both have +5 swords?

If they had a key, now one has the key, and the other one also has the same key?

If they have a staff of fireballs, post-split they both have staves, and they can both shoot fireballs, but they share the staff's total charges?

Huh. It is all very odd. What if they are seperated and one gets pickpocketed? Or disarmed? Or sundered? What happens to the one the other twin is using at the same time?

Are we sure we don't just prefer a rule like this:

Stars align: through happenstance, chance, and fate, the twins are never seperated.

Another name for that power could be Psychically Cojoined

Or HECK! Just make them ACTUALLY Cojoined! That would be a swell solution!

You could even make them ...

Magically Cojoined: Through an unbreakable divine curse, the Twins must always be touching, though the point of contact may vary. No mortal magic can end this curse.

Mitch 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 9:38:16 PM
More like I'm not going to recalculate their entire character sheet if they get split to account for every magic item. "You get the armor, you get the weapon, you get the belt..." It would take forever and be a huge pain for everyone. Instead I'll decide who has what as it comes up - I play them melee, one gets the longsword the other gets the greataxe, they had a key pre-split and whichever one it's more appropriate to have it has it when it comes up. They own a set of plate armor, split the pieces between them, and them each having half the suit is represented by the -5 AC.

So like I said it'll be like the class features. I won't go through their spell book going "This twin has this spell, this twin has that spell" I'll just have them cast spells appropriately and we assume that's the twin that had it prepared. With items I just establish who has what as needed and we don't worry about it to much.

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 10:36:26 PM
Jotun thoughts: Size cap should be huge. All other effects that alter the size of a PC does not allow a player character to go above size huge.

shapechange a 9th level spell that allows you to pick between alter self, beast shape IV, elemental body IV, form of the dragon III, giant form II, and plant shape III have a size cap of huge.

PCs are allowed to shrink down to diminutive size through magic already so the Tersier size is ok but a PC shouldn't be able to go beyond Huge.

Even the spell giant form II which allows players to transmute themselves into giants won't let a player go beyond huge.

As for the rest; I like Cayzle's suggestions re: armor and bonuses and then I see a Jotun paragon being fine

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Monday June 22nd, 2020 11:19:44 PM
Mitch, what you are saying is, wing it, improvise as needed, and it'll be okay.

Well ... it is not the way I woudl approach things, but what do I know? Okay, I'll vote yes, and if it doesn't work out, we can re-evaluate at the end of each module. Heck, you may not even be joining us until your other tap game is done. How is that going?

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 7:04:54 AM
Re: twins...I vote yes

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 7:31:05 AM
The power armor abilities I put in the writeup are adapted directly from similar abilities that the unchained summoner gets at the same levels. Granted we don't have summoners unchained or otherwise in the Wold normally but I really like the idea of getting a power armor ability. Is there anyway that the power armor could be adapted so that Cayzle would not have an issue with it? I mean I'm okay with getting rid of modularity and extending weird science to include 0th level spells and I'd even be ok with sacrificing one of the power armor abilities but I want the ability at some point to go iron man if I want to and it seems like the power armor as written are deal breakers for Cayzle so can we fix them so that at least one option is acceptable?

Mitch 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 7:55:24 AM
It's going fine, still getting early in it though. We just started our first real combat.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 11:38:14 AM
Hugh, sorry, did not mean to be so negative. There must be a way to make this armor idea work. Here's the rules you propose, with my notes interspersed.:

Power Armor Mach I: At 16th level, as a full round action a Technomancer can direct his Mechanical Minion to transform itself from being a separate creature to a set of powered armor that can assemble itself around the technomancer. While encased in the transformed power armor the Technomancer is protected from harm and not be the target of spells or effects.
Cayzle: Yup, deal breaker. You can cast spells at a person hiding behind a tower shield, for gosh sake, by targeting the shield. Not to mention spells that do not require line of sight, such as scrying and nightmare.

All effects and spells currently targeting the Technomancer are suspended until the Technomancer emerges from the power armor (although durations continue to expire)
Cayzle: Yup, still a deal breaker. Look at what suspending spells does: You are baleful polymorphed into a racoon. Mech minion changes into power armor and suddenly you are unpolymorphed? You are magic jarred. Armor on, and you are unjarred?! You are confused. Suddenly because you are wearing armor you are unconfused? Nothing in the game can suddenly do ALL this EXCEPT Anti-Magic Field. What, the armor creates an Internal AMF? If that's true, then all your items turn off and you cannot cast spells or use SLAs or supernatural abilities.
But that's not all. all EFFECTS are suspended. Poisoned? not anymore. Dying? nope. Blind, sickened, panicked, pinned, energy drained, diseased, lycanthroped, exhausted ... all of a sudden none of those effects apply to you? Ugh.

The technomancer can use prepared devices while inside the power armor by taking control of the mechanical minion for the duration of the activation, even though they would be otherwise inaccessible. The technomancer can direct all of the mechanical minions actions while wearing it as power armor, can perceive through its senses and can speak through its voice. The technomancer can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to their technomancer level. They can end this effect at any time as a swift action. The technomancer emerges in a square adjacent to the mechanical minion if able and the mechanical minion reverts back to a creature. If the mechanical minion is forced to go inert while the technomancer is wearing it as power armor the technomancer is immediately ejected, takes 4d6 points of damage and is stunned for 1 round. In this scenario the minion is reverted back to orb form.

Power Armor Mach II:
At 20th level a technomancer has perfected the secret of power armor. As a standard action the technomancer can encase themself in an upgraded set of power armor based off of but separate from their mechanical minion. This upgraded armor copies all of the minions upgrades, forms and abilities. The technomancer’s Strength and Dex scores change to match the base scores of the minion and they gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the size bonus of the minion. A technomancer can choose to have any gear carried become integrated with the power armor as well as effects from the polymorph subschool. Items with continuous effects continue to function while integrated in this way. The technomancer loses his natural attacks and all racial traits (except bonus feats, skills and languages) in favor of the abilities granted by the mechanical minions upgrades. The technomancer retains all of their class features. The technomancer can keep this form for a number of minutes per day equal to their summoner level. The duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute intervals. The technomancer can end this effect as a free action.

Cayzle: This capstone is a different kind of bogus. This one lets you become your minion while your minion still functions independently.

My suggestion: How about something like this:

Gained at level 11: Power Armor: As a standard action taken by the Mech Minion, the minion wraps itself around its creator and transforms into magical +1 intelligent full plate. The minion can assume power armor form for one minute per technomancer level; the minutes do not have to be continuous. The technomancer is considered proficient when wearing this armor and can make use of one of the following upgrades (if the minion posseses them): Climb, Improved Speed, Ability Increase (Str or Dex only), and Flight. The Minion can continue to act independently to use any skills and abilities based on purely mental functions or senses or speech. Half of all damage taken by the technomancer is applied to the minion. The minion can unwrap as a standard action, or as no action after allowed minutes are used up. If the minion has the cold iron, mithril, or admantine upgrades, then the armor is treated as +1 cold iron full plate or +1 mithril full plate or +1 admantine full plate.

Gained at level 20: Capstone Armor: As Power Armor, but the technomancer gains ALL of the following upgrades (if the minion posseses them): Climb, Improved Speed, Ability Increase (Str or Dex only), Flight as well as Resistance, Immunity, Burrow, Damage Reduction, and Spell Resistance. The enhancement bonus increases if some upgrades are installed: +1 for each size category the minion is larger than the technomancer, and +1 for the heavy chassis upgrade. The minion can wrap and unwrap as a swift action, and it can remain in capstone armor form for as long as desired.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 1:18:45 PM
If you accept the suggestion that the Technomancer can use either his Mech Minion or a Widget at the same time, you could say the widget can be active while the minion is in armor form.

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 5:33:10 PM
I agree with the huge size limit for the Kim's jotan, if nothing else, game mechanics wise going bigger then that can make things rather difficult if the party travels into a dungeon of any kind. Even at huge it may be a good idea to have a potion of reduce person handy.

Kathy 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 5:55:06 PM
I already gave a tentative "yes" to the Technomancer.

Yes on the Twins. (Sorry; I thought Mitch wasn't joining us right away so there was less urgency with his.)

Yes on Kim's Jotun.

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 8:58:41 PM
I've been out of it for a couple of days, but with respect to the Technomancer I asked Hugh a question that Cayzle's post above brings to a point. Is what the technomancer does magic? I've been expecting an answer of no, it's not magic but a magic-equivalent, just like psionics are not magic but a different form of abilities not found in real life. Cayzle clearly sees the answer as yes, the technomancer performs magic. Answer doesn't much matter until you run into dispel magic or the like.

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Tuesday June 23rd, 2020 10:22:39 PM
Um well its hard to say. I mean as I put down Arthur C. Clarke's quote on significantly advanced technology being indistinquishable from magic and in a world where things are fairly low tech but has magic a technomancers technomancy can be seen as magic.

I mean for the sake of balance are you asking can dispel magic affect a device? I would say that the anwer could very well be yes. I mean in the Dresden Files Harry Dresden avoided certain technologies because his magical energy interfered with them and the mechanical minion can be forced into inertness through banishment or dismisal.

What would be easier from a balance perspective? That it is magic or that it is like magic but not (Like psionics?)

Also to answer the bluff reasoning. A lot of the devices project illusions so wouldn't being able to bluff help sell certain illusions?

I am currently on vacation so I don't know if I'll be able to revise the proposal now or until Saturday and Sunday. I value all your feedback and am planning to incorporate many changes to the version 2.0

Mitch 
Wednesday June 24th, 2020 8:01:33 AM
There is no rush on the twins it'd just be nice to get them approved now so I can just jump in later without us having to take time to debate.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 24th, 2020 8:18:49 AM
Let's update the votes ...

VOTING PROGRESS
===== ===== ===== =====

Hugh | Asimov | Technomancer custom class (version 2.0 to come Monday, 29 June)
Cayzle: waiting to see the 2.0 revision
Hugh: Yes
Tanner:
Kathy: Yes?
Steve:
Kim:
Jeremy: Yes
Mitch:

===== ===== ===== =====

Mitch | The Twins | Twinned Racial Abilities (posted above) [RESERVE]

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner:
Kathy: Yes
Steve:
Kim:
Jeremy: Yes
Mitch: Yes

===== ===== ===== =====

Tanner | DAVE | Mantid (custom race) Monk (Tetori Archetype)
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Cayzle | Zeoll | Greensinger
6 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Kathy| Honor Bright | Aasimar Paladin
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Steve | Elron | Monk/Barbarian
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Jeremy | Whiz-Bang | Awakened Tarsier (posted above) [RESERVE]
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

Please look over your votes, fill in blanks, and vote.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 24th, 2020 8:24:40 AM
Jeremy and Mitch, do you mind if I make googledocs for your twists and share with the groups, so that we do not have to scroll to see them, and so that you can put a link on your PC sheet?

Players with approved twists should make PC sheets and link to them please.

Steve, I challenge you to change the name of your Twist, since "Monk/Barbarian" just sounds like a standard class. And to remove the chit-chat back and forth between you and me (unless you want to keep stuff you wrote as design notes).

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Wednesday June 24th, 2020 10:10:07 AM
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c9PyWhdLmYJqMi4PtkN85BwX-j21SfsTlIqL_KmD4Y/edit

Here is the doc I made for the awakened tarsier, thought I’d save you the time Cayzle.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 24th, 2020 3:16:24 PM
Not for this game, but I had an idea, and I figured the folks here might have some interesting feedback. Destined for my blog.

Imagine a mage who specialized in ropes. A Rope Mage.

Bound bloodline sorcerer.

Sometimes the ties that bind can wrap around a soul. Those who find themselves inspired by restraint may discover that the magic of the strings is also freeing.

Skills: Perform Dance (for rope dancing), Perform String Instrument [This bloodline offers proficiency with two related skills]

Bonus Spells: Entangle (3rd), Rope Trick (5th), Snare (7th), Black Tentacles (9th), Summon Snake V (emperor cobra snake or giant moray eel) (11th), Animate Ropes (13th), Grasping Rope (15th), Binding (17th), Astral Cord (19th).

Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (Whip, Lasso, Net, or Bolas only), Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, Greater Whip Mastery, Combat Casting, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Initiative

Bloodline Arcana: Add the spells listed below to your class spell list. When casting one of these spells, add +2 to your caster level and +1 to your saving throw DC. When casting any other spell, you take a -1 penalty to your caster level.

Bloodline Powers

Whip Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level, but specifically, you gain a bonded object that is a length of rope, a rope-whip. You gain the Exotic Weapon (Whip) feat, and your rope-whip acts exactly like a masterwork whip. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your bonded whip. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

At third level you can use your rope-whip to deliver touch spells. Make your usual melee attack instead of the ranged or melee touch attack, and the result includes both the whip and spell effects. If you miss, you hold the charge and can try again.

Spells (many just reskinned versions of standard spells):
- 0th Mage Hand, Mend Rope, Message, Knot/Unknot, Dancing Light Snake
- 1st: Rope Armor. Animate Rope, Entangle, Summon Snake I (viper), Shocking Grasp, Rope Shelter
- 2nd: Rope Trick. Summon Snake Swarm, Sepia Snake Sigil, Rope to Steel, Sickening Entangle, Peacebond
- 3rd: Snare, Summon Snake III (constrictor snake or electric eel), Vampiric Touch, Cushioning Ropes, Marionette Possession, Strangling Hair
- 4th: Fabricate Rope, Rope Tentacles, Wall of Rope, Fleshworm Infestation, Spit Venom, Poison
- 5th: Summon Snake V (emperor cobra snake or giant moray eel), Lesser Astral Cord, Rope Shackles, Magic Jar, Lesser Planar Binding
- 6th: Find the Path, Animate Ropes, Planar Binding, Forceful Rope
- 7th: Summon Snake VII (couatl or spirit naga), Grasping Rope
- 8th: Binding, Dimensional Lock, Greater Planar Binding, Clenched Rope
- 9th: Astral Cord, Summon Snake IX (frost worm or crimson worm), Soul Bind, Crushing Rope

Kathy 
Wednesday June 24th, 2020 9:41:16 PM
Suggestions for Steve (to replace Monk/Barbarian): Spirit Warrior, Hand of Fury, Thunderfist

Cayzle, the Rope Mage should have Craft: Macrame as a class skill. :D

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer 
Wednesday June 24th, 2020 10:36:36 PM
How about calling the new class a Bonk or Marbarian?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Wednesday June 24th, 2020 11:41:26 PM
Bonk, lol.

DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Thursday June 25th, 2020 2:08:38 AM
Cayzle, your idea sounds similar to the Tatterdemalion witch archetype.

Steve, I have always been a fan of non-mystic unarmed warriors. Something simple like 'Pugilist' or 'Brawler' would work.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Thursday June 25th, 2020 7:56:45 AM
OOH! Good link Tanner. Thanks!

Kathy 
Thursday June 25th, 2020 1:13:09 PM
Heh. He uses bludgeoning weapons, so "Bonk" is a great option. :)

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Thursday June 25th, 2020 9:02:37 PM
Actually, BONK is pretty perfect. Then again, Brawler would work too.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Friday June 26th, 2020 6:44:07 AM

Mitch, I put your latest proposal into a googledoc (linked below). I note this for your core benefit:

Changing weapons is a free action for them once per round (representing them trading off rather than drawing a new weapon) and they cannot be flanked.

Let's say the immunity to flanking is a trade for the human bonus feat. The changing weapons is not a balanced trade for the bonus skill ranks. I suggest the following:

Changing and drawing weapons is a free action for them (as the Quickdraw feat), and they cannot be flanked.

That's both a better balance and uses an existing game mechanic to do the same thing.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Friday June 26th, 2020 6:48:28 AM
Let's update the votes ...

VOTING PROGRESS
===== ===== ===== =====

Hugh | Asimov | Technomancer custom class (version 2.0 to come Monday, 29 June)
Cayzle: waiting to see the 2.0 revision
Hugh: Yes
Tanner:
Kathy: Yes?
Steve:
Kim:
Jeremy: Yes
Mitch:

===== ===== ===== =====

Mitch | The Twins | Twinned [RESERVE]

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner:
Kathy: Yes
Steve:
Kim:
Jeremy: Yes
Mitch: Yes

===== ===== ===== =====

Tanner | DAVE | Mantid (custom race) Monk (Tetori Archetype)
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Cayzle | Zeoll | Greensinger
6 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Kathy| Honor Bright | Aasimar Paladin
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Steve | Elron | Monk/Barbarian
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Jeremy | Whiz-Bang | Awakened Tarsier [RESERVE]
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

Please look over your votes, fill in blanks, and vote.

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Friday June 26th, 2020 6:49:34 AM
I like Bonk, not to confused with Gonk.

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Friday June 26th, 2020 4:13:59 PM
You can go ahead and put me down as voting for the twins. The only issues I see with it can be controlled by the DM, and would be the DM's headache anyway.


DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Friday June 26th, 2020 5:45:27 PM
Twins YES

Mitch 
Saturday June 27th, 2020 3:21:19 AM
I'm probably going to stop paying attention here now. I was mostly interested in what ideas everyone would run with and even if not everything is finished with the details everyone's at least made their base pitch. I'll let you guys know when my current tap ends and I'm ready to join.

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Saturday June 27th, 2020 11:32:57 AM
I’ll probably keep checking in, but won’t be saying anything, especially since things are almost wrapped up and the game will probably be starting soon. Like Mitch, when the black tap is done, I’m looking forward to jumping in, assuming there’s still room for a cute little Druid at the time.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Saturday June 27th, 2020 11:59:36 AM
The most recent votes give the Twins an in. SO really all we need is Hugh's Technomancer 2.0. And Kim's proposal. Everyone else should be making first level PC sheets and linking to them so we can vet each other.

Mitch, Jeremy, see you when your Tap is done! Good luck!

Asimov | Hugh - proposing technomancer v2 
Sunday June 28th, 2020 2:22:11 AM
I have revised Technomancer 2.0 based on your comments. I have incorporated most comments suggested. Let me know if it needs further changes.

Hugh

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday June 28th, 2020 7:42:23 AM
Took a look, Hugh, and even if I had quibbles, you've bent over backwards to compromise. I'm ready.

Making a full class is very tough. Especially a complicated caster with a companion. Look at our Woldian Bloodwitch. That thing has taken a lot of work and multiple major revisions. Regarding the Technomancer, if you were pushing to make something that would be used by players across the Wold, or for wider publication, I'd still want to give it another deep pass and debate. But for our game, I don't see the need. If anything is egregious, we can revise at the end of each module when we do a little self-review.

I'd like to see a final version with all comments and design notes taken out, nice and clean like a published class. When you leave comments in but do not address them, I assume you chose not to take that suggestion. That's fine, but why clutter up the doc? Keep in mind that as each of us DMs the table, we'll have to read through your write-up and understand the class. Make it as easy on your fellow DMs/players as you can by taking out the chit-chat and kibbitzing.

I vote to APPROVE the Technomancer.

Everybody else, these latest changes are extensive. Please take a look and update / make your vote. We're almost ready to play, everybody! Just waiting on Kim.

Honor Bright (Kathy) 
Sunday June 28th, 2020 3:45:44 PM
After looking at the Technomancer, I move my tentative "yes" to a solid "yes."

Looking at Zeoll's character sheet, I see he is +11 to melee attacks and +12 to ranged attacks. That seems like a lot for first level. Cayzle, could you walk me through how you arrived at that?

Also on Zeoll's character sheet, I think we need to have a conversation about how many of those Yule gifts, party favors, mementos, etc. it would be realistic for this version of Zeoll to have.

DAVE's character sheet looks fine.

Honor Bright (Kathy) 
Sunday June 28th, 2020 6:57:05 PM
Oh, and speaking of DAVE, Tanner, have you seen this Twitter thread?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday June 28th, 2020 7:35:34 PM
Kathy, thanks for keeping me honest. Fixed the bad attacks.

On the sentimental items, in the spirit of compromise, I am removing the two that actually offered any kind of mechanical benefit:

- A Scarf of Woven Elements, received at the Iron Dragons Consortium Elevation Party. The scarf is made with iron thread and has a dragon on one side and the original Iron Adventurer logo on the reverse. This yellow scarf, representing the element of air, has a single effect, usable only a single time: feather fall CL1. 11/14/2016
- A Cloak of Good Naps - Using this cloak as a pillow cuts down by 1/2 hour the 8 hour requirement for rest necessary for certain spell renewals. Lotto prize, 15 May 2017.

ALL the other items are RP only and very sentimental. Please do not take them away!

Asimov | Hugh | technomancer v2 (shor 
Sunday June 28th, 2020 9:43:59 PM
I've filled out a character sheet for Asimov and shortened the proposal (removing the notes) to make it easier on the dms

Y (Kim) 
Monday June 29th, 2020 11:58:50 AM

Okay, I just finished up several hugely (unanticipated) busy weeks, culminating last night. I have time now. I'll have something posted Tuesday night for 'Y' - likely including an actual name! Am taking the suggestions offered on the Jotun.

Oh, and I downloaded the full-meal-deal pdf you linked to, Cayzle. I got your email, and appreciated what you wrote. This week will give you (and me) the answer to your kind question.



Honor Bright (Kathy) 
Monday June 29th, 2020 2:33:23 PM
I'm perfectly willing to believe that Cayzle could create a first-level character with a +11 melee bonus. I would be surprised, however, if said character was a 10-strength bard. :D

Regarding the presents and mementos, I wasn't saying consign them all to the void! But isn't this kind of an alternate-reality version of Zeoll? One who never adventured with the Black Lions or partied with the Iron Dragons? I would think all that stuff would belong with Zeoll Prime. But it's your character.

Y (Kim) 
Monday June 29th, 2020 5:42:24 PM

For Jeremy's Whiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier, here is this video on Tarsiers - Creepy Little Ninjas

DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5 
Monday June 29th, 2020 7:30:20 PM
Kathy, I had not seen that before. It's funny. :)

Technomancer YES

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Tuesday June 30th, 2020 5:58:58 AM

No, this is the same Zeoll, the one who had all those adventures, aware that he is in a Tapestry game, and loving the chance to be young(er) again. This is middle-aged Zeoll, hale and sturdy, having great fun here on the holodeck!

Asimov | Hugh | technomancer 
Tuesday June 30th, 2020 8:56:17 AM
Does that make Asimov a hologram on Zeoll's holodeck? I mean Asimov isn't necessarily from the Wold. Though I mean the whole thing with those portals the Iron Dragons were involved with allows the possibility for a whole range of worlds that the Wold intersects with. You did say Asimov was the only one of his class

Honor Bright (Kathy) 
Tuesday June 30th, 2020 8:08:00 PM
Revised Zeoll looks fine.

For Asimov, just because he has such a high Int modifier, you might want to consider marking Knowledge skills N/A where he doesn't have ranks. (Knowledge skills can't be done untrained.) Your choice, of course. Everything else looked fine.

Asimov | Hugh | technomancer 
Tuesday June 30th, 2020 10:51:23 PM
@Kathy

You technically can make an untrained knowledge check; you just can't make them for any DC greater than 10.

From the description of the knowledge skill:
Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.

Honor Bright (Kathy) 
Wednesday July 1st, 2020 12:29:10 AM
I apologize for overstepping.

Mundhildur Karadottir, Jotun singing giant (Kim) 
Wednesday July 1st, 2020 1:03:03 AM

I've decided to go with the Jotun paragon class recommended by Tanner, as tweaked by Cayzle. Concerning size, Hugh, you strongly recommended that the Jotun be limited to Huge size, because everyone else is so limited. My counter to that is - this is a giant who might eventually wrestle with dragons (in the upper echelons of the class). And the Jotun can travel about typically in a much smaller size, as small as Medium. I'd be fine with huge as the standard max, but would like to have some mechanism that would allow her (yes, for the first time for me in the Wold, I'm looking to play a female character - my wife gave me some great ideas) to shoot up to Gargantuan at 16th, and Colossal at 20th. But perhaps with daily time limitations on those sizes.

However, since this looks to be, what, about a 5- or 6-year game, any size more than Huge is years off, and we can further negotiate as the level benefits in question draw near.

In 1e Oriental Adventures, there is a spell that allows a PC to grow to - what is it, 100 feet or so in height? And, I know, this is Pathfinder, not OA.

For the +2 Strength AND Constitution bonus every 6th level, I'm fine with changing that to +2 for Str or Con (or maybe split between them?). Though, hey, the bonuses as written would be sweet. What if at 11th level and 20th level she got the +2 Strength and Constitution bennies?

Am planning to go with storm giant features (air domain) in general. Though Jotun generally are Lawful Neutral, and she would have come from that environment, but the storm giants are Chaotic Good, I'm thinking somewhere in between there? Neutral Good with chaotic moments? The occasional recollection of law (as understood by the Jotun).

I just worked for about 36 hours straight, so I have not had time yet to draw up a character sheet. I'll have something put together over the next few days. So, in theory, we might as a group be ready to start like, next week?

Asimov | Hugh | technomancer 
Wednesday July 1st, 2020 8:52:45 AM
@Kathy think nothing of it

@Kim It would be okay to go beyond huge if it was a temporary thing and at the higher levels / capstone I suppose. I mean you don't have to be such large size to grapple dragons in Hook or anything as a halfling monk staying size small did that

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle  d12=7 ;
Thursday July 2nd, 2020 10:51:27 AM
LOL! Kathy, if you are overstepping, then I'm a colossal Jotun with very long legs!

Speaking of which, Kim, thanks for joining in. I am sure we can find a solution that satisfied everybody. Honestly, I think we are almost there.

Sorry I have not been vetting sheets. Just super busy IRL. I hope to get on later today and do that.

Okay OFFICIAL business!

Per the rules for this Tapestry, "DMs will rotate in order by die roll, highest on a d12 goes first, ties mean the older person sits in the DM chair before the younger."

Here is my official die roll for DM order: a 7!

Please each of you make a roll.

[And yes, I chose a d12 because I feel bad for the poor neglected twelve-sided die!]

I will inform Coordinator Rob that we will soon have a DM to whom he can send the first two scenes of the module he has selected. I *think* he plans to step into the DM seat briefly to set up the over-story for the Tapestry.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Thursday July 2nd, 2020 10:51:52 AM
Let's update the votes ...

VOTING PROGRESS
===== ===== ===== =====

Hugh | Asimov | Technomancer custom class (version 2.0 to come Monday, 29 June)
Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve:
Kim: Yes
Jeremy: [Yes to first version]
Mitch:

===== ===== ===== =====

Mitch | The Twins | Twinned [RESERVE]

Cayzle: Yes
Hugh: Yes
Tanner: Yes
Kathy: Yes
Steve: Yes
Kim:
Jeremy: Yes
Mitch: Yes

===== ===== ===== =====

Tanner | DAVE | Mantid (custom race) Monk (Tetori Archetype)
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Cayzle | Zeoll | Greensinger
6 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Kathy| Honor Bright | Aasimar Paladin
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Steve | Elron | Monk/Barbarian
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

===== ===== ===== =====

Jeremy | Whiz-Bang | Awakened Tarsier [RESERVE]
5 Yesses of 6 current players = APPROVED

Twins are APPROVED. Technomancer needs either Kim or Steve to say YES.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Thursday July 2nd, 2020 11:50:44 AM
HUGH -- I was looking over your technomancer write-up -- looks great ...

But I just cannot stop being a butt-in-ski! I played with your formatting and tables and such. Hope you do not mind my "improvements."

ALSO, you have your mech minion getting an ability score increase at 4 hit dice and 7 hit dice. But I am pretty sure you meant to follow core rules, and grant an ability score increase at 4, 8, and 12 hit dice, right?

Honor Bright (Kathy)  d12=1 ;
Thursday July 2nd, 2020 12:39:35 PM
My d12 roll is a 1.

Mundhildur Karadottir, Jotun singing giant (Kim) 
Thursday July 2nd, 2020 3:45:58 PM
Kathy - you do know that you get to reroll a 1, right? :-)

I voted 'Yes' on Technomancer. Had planned to read all of the proposals (I've glanced at most, but not read all the way through each), but Hugh's opus used up my allotted reading time. Abetted by the many comments. And I fixed two one-letter typos (e.g., barkskin was barksin - unless you wanted to have immoral bark).

Won't be until Friday / Saturday I get to finishing my CS, and reading the rest. Booked today past midnight already.

You all have serious design / rules-fu. Admiration.

SteveM - Elron Proposal  d12=1 ;
Thursday July 2nd, 2020 4:44:16 PM
Roll for DM order = 1.

Hmm... Good result. Don't know if I like the implications that Kathy and I compare ages later.

If we change that to barkstin, can it be immortal bark? On the theory that typos can cancel each other out. . .


DAVE (Tanner) -- HP 10 | AC 17/16/14 | CMD 16 | F+4/R+5/W+5  d12=8 ;
Thursday July 2nd, 2020 7:02:50 PM
I roll an 8.

Kim, I'm fine with you being any size all the time! :)

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Thursday July 2nd, 2020 7:57:01 PM
I'm trying to grapple Kim's proposal into text on a screen. Kim, how does this work:

Jotun Proposal:

This character uses the Jotun race and the Jotun Paragon Class. Multiclassing into other classes is allowed.

The paragon class is altered in these ways:

(1) Bonuses to Strength and Constitution (gained at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20) are cut in half.
(2) Bonuses to Natural AC gained at every level are cut in half, round down.
(3) Note that magic cannot be used to grow even bigger.
(4) Only light armor may be worn, and if a shield is used, then only one slam per round may be made.
(5) At 16th level, the Jotun can grow to Gargantuan size for one round per level, once per day. At 20th level, as a standard action, the Jotun can grow to Gargantuan or Colossal size for one minute per level, once per day. This replaces the standard size increase abilities gained at levels 16 and 20 in the printed rules.

This character will be using the storm giant features / air domain options.

Does that do justice to your vision, Kim?

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Friday July 3rd, 2020 11:35:39 AM
FWIW, Kim, I love the singing giant idea. With a couple levels of bard, or at least ranks in Perform, we can form a band!

Who else wants to be minstrels?

Wiz-Bang, the Awakened Tarsier (Jeremy) 
Friday July 3rd, 2020 11:50:10 AM
I would vote yes to what Cayzle wrote up

Asimov | Hugh | technomancer  d12=5 ;
Friday July 3rd, 2020 10:17:40 PM
I rolled a 5

Yeah let me fix the minion write up to have the correct ability score increases. Kim I'm okay with the Jotun revision.

Mundhildur Karadottir, Jotun singing giant (Kim) 
Saturday July 4th, 2020 4:03:23 AM

Cayzle - Thanks, and I'll look over your suggestions as I'm able the 4th, and if need be, the 5th. Will also be working out a character sheet.

Man, I keep on thinking busy-ness will slow down, and life, friends, family, work, church, community keep throwing curves, sliders, and smokin' fastballs.

Plus, all that research and 'summation' [smirk] for Murphy's report to the Vale folk ate up more time ;-)

Mundhildur Karadottir, Jotun singing giant (Kim) 
Saturday July 4th, 2020 11:51:42 PM

Cayzle wrote:
The paragon class is altered in these ways:

(1) Bonuses to Strength and Constitution (gained at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20) are cut in half.
(2) Bonuses to Natural AC gained at every level are cut in half, round down.
(3) Note that magic cannot be used to grow even bigger.
(4) Only light armor may be worn, and if a shield is used, then only one slam per round may be made.
(5) At 16th level, the Jotun can grow to Gargantuan size for one round per level, once per day. At 20th level, as a standard action, the Jotun can grow to Gargantuan or Colossal size for one minute per level, once per day. This replaces the standard size increase abilities gained at levels 16 and 20 in the printed rules.

This character will be using the storm giant features / air domain options.


I'll start with #3 - magic cannot be used to grow even bigger - no problem with that stipulation.

(1) Earlier, I had agreed to cutting the 2nd, 8th, 14th and 20th level bonuses in half. That is an overall 36% reduction in her strength and con bonuses. You want to further weaken her by slicing it to 50%. This is a giant. They are supposed to be strong. They are noted for their toughness. You want her to be a relative wimp for a giant. Why? I'm not happy about cutting in half the 4 levels that give her a decent boost. Far less so about your suggestion.

Giant: Strong. Tough & resilient

Cayzle's giant: Yeah, okay, better than the average ogre

The proposal I had would cut down the STR / CON bonuses by 36.36%. You are cutting them down by 50%. I'd even rather see the 2nd level bonus as written stand, and go with my proposal for the rest.

A. Net result in book, if applied evenly between STR & CON: 11 / 11 (22 total) 100%
B. Net result by Kim's keep level 2 the same, then limit all others to 2 points every 3 levels to assign to either STR, or CON, or split 1/1 between them: 8 / 8 (16 total) 72% (27% reduction)
C. Net result if 2 pts at 2nd, 5th, 8th, etc. thru 20th: 7 / 7 (14 total) 64% (36% reduction)
D. Net result of Cayzle's suggestion of 50% slash in Jotun's key characteristics: 6 / 5 (or 5 / 6) (11 total) 50% (50% reduction)

B2. One other option, with the same totals as B, is to modify it to have the +2 STR / +2 CON bonus at level 8, rather than level 2. Same 8 / 8 (16 total) result. Her boost comes just before mid-point of overall progression.

Your (2) and (4) are tied together. You slash her NAT AC by 54%. You offer the [sop? ;-) ] substitute of wearing light armor and bearing a shield.

According to the source, NO armor may be worn. I would rather stick with that, and the published Natural AC progression, rather than your light armor counter-proposal. Giants, being giants, have thick skin.

Restated, a Jotun paragon is proficient with no armor, no shields. We stick with that. It's not unheard of to see giants in armor. But, if Jotun were allowed armor, then how do they deal with alternating between their largest-by-level size and smaller sizes, if non-magical armor is going to be stuck at one particular size. So, as written, no armor. No shield. And keep the natural armor.

Per your suggestion, Cayzle, she ends up with only +6 natural armor, rather than +13. I don't want her to wear armor. I want her to have her natural giantish thick skin. Your solution cuts way down on her ability to change sizes if she is wearing armor, so she likely would not wear it in any case.

[I realize I'm beating this horse somewhat by restating it in various ways.]

Though there are some spell-like abilities and nice feats, she is not a spell-caster (unless, after attaining Level 6 Jotun, she dips into a spell-casting class - I'm liking either the bard idea or maybe cleric, but just for a couple of levels, then back to Jotun). Others are getting cool benefits as they progress. Why chop off so much of what the Jotun was designed around?

(5) - Kim's mod: At 16th level, the Jotun can grow to Gargantuan size for one minute per level total per day, not split into more than 2 occasions (e.g., 10 minutes on one occasion, 6 on another, or other splits). At 20th level, as a standard action, the Jotun can grow to Gargantuan or Colossal size for one minute per level per day, spread over no more than 3 occasions. This replaces the standard size increase abilities gained at levels 16 and 20 in the printed rules.

RobC 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 12:09:02 AM
Hi All!

FYI... I'll be kicking off some DM posts this week to set the scene and give you a chance to roleplay in character. PC sheets don't need to be complete for this. It's more providing the overview to the setting and preparing for handover to whoever is DMing next.

DM Die rolls so far:
Tanner 8
Cayzle 7
Hugh 5
Kathy 1
SteveM 1

Still need d12 rolls from Jeremy and Kim

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 6:13:04 AM
Rob, Mitch and Jeremy are reserve players, with the option to join after their other Tap finishes. So Jeremy does not have to roll to DM until after he joins in the future.

Kim needs to roll!

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 6:35:34 AM
Kim, thanks for the spirit of compromise.

I think your suggestion of prohibiting armor and shields is a good one. I'm fine with just reducing the natural armor bonuses by 1 only, with that prohibition.

It is true that giants are big and strong. They are also clumsy. Standard practice in the game is that when a creature changes size (via enlarge, or polymorph), that dex goes down when str goes up. I'm content with your suggestion on str and con increases, if you reduce dex by -2 each time you go up in size. Similarly, I propose that when you get smaller, you gain back a +2 dex and lose a -2 str.

For level 16, how about you can grow to Gargantuan for 1 minute per level, once per day, as a standard action. For level 20, gargantuan or colossal, 1 min/level, twice per day, as a swift acrtion.

I'm suggesting ...

Jotun Twist Proposal:

This character uses the Jotun race and the Jotun Paragon Class. Multiclassing into other classes is allowed.

The paragon class is altered in these ways:

(1) Bonuses to Strength and Constitution gained at 2nd, 8th, 14th and 20th level are cut in half.
(2) When the jotun increases a size category, a -2 is applied to dexterity (bonuses to str, con, and natural armor based on size increases are already factored into the class progression). When the jotun decreases a size category, a +2 is applied to dexterity and a -2 is applied to strength and natural armor.
(3) Bonuses to Natural AC gained at every level are reduced by 1 (just once, not -1 per level).
(4) Note that magic cannot be used to grow even bigger.
(5) No armor or shield may be used.
(6) At 16th level, the Jotun can grow to Gargantuan size for one minute per level, once per day, as a standard action. At 20th level, the Jotun can grow to Gargantuan or Colossal size for one minute per level, twice per day, as a swift action. This replaces the standard size increase abilities gained at levels 16 and 20 in the printed rules.

This character will be using the storm giant features / air domain options.

Thoughts?

Honor Bright (Kathy) 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 12:16:32 PM
I'm having a thought.

Honor carries her father's sword, named Virtue. Right now, it's an ordinary longsword. My original plan was I'd pay to upgrade it to Masterwork as soon as I could afford it, then kind of retcon it that it had been Masterwork all along. Then I'd pay to get enhancements to it as I could afford them.

But I'm wondering how people would feel if Honor had a Masterwork longsword from the beginning? Kind of part of her twist?

Asimov | Hugh | technomancer 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 1:28:00 PM
Would it be game breaking to give Kathy a trait in addition to her Aasimar race exemption? I don't think it would.

Kathy I once played a Hunter dedicated to Iomedae in a PFS tap that had a trait that allowed her to start with a masterwork longsword, now we don't use their deities but would it be cool to adapt a faith based trait to the Wold and give it to Honor in addition to her race as her twist?

I am on board.

So there is this faith trait called: Chosen of Iomedae

It is described as:
At your birth, your parents dedicated your soul to Iomedae to mold into a sword of her light. The goddess blessed you, granting you a gift of light to brighten your path through darkness and a fine sword with which to spread her will. You may cast light once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level 1st), and you begin play with a masterwork longsword. In addition, whenever light is cast upon this sword, the radius of light and its duration is doubled.

I know you wanted to use a sword but their doesn't appear to be a sword wielding Deity in the Woldian Pantheon but there is a sword wielding immortal power and that is the crones. Was honor going to be a paladin of the crones? If so could we give her a faith based trait called

Chosen of the Crones of the South:
At your birth, your parents dedicated your soul to the Crones of the South to mold into a sword of their wisdom and martial prowress. The immortal powers blessed you, granting you a gift of comprehension and a fine sword with which to spread their message. You may cast comprehend language once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level 1st), and you begin play with a masterwork longsword.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 2:33:46 PM
I like the idea of the trait, Kathy. Just count it against your WBL after we get to 2nd level.

Mundhildur Karadottir, Jotun singing giant (Kim)  d12=1 ; d20=5 ; d20=4 ;
Sunday July 5th, 2020 2:46:38 PM
Aha! The dice roller loves the number 1 these days. So, we have a three-way tie with Kathy, SteveM, and Kim.

Kathy - Sorry - I had thought you were rolling for hit points!

The extra rolls? A finger mashed a few keys at once. Magical rolls.

Our church's A/V computer died Friday during a tech meeting. Took until late Friday to get it fixed. C: drive, an SSD, corrupted - took a bit to get it cloned, and we lost a lot of data. Limited time Saturday to get things fixed. Stayed up until 5AM today getting it (mostly) up and running. Slept about 90 minutes, came back. Mine fields all morning on the streaming. I had my wife use a smartphone as a streaming backup - that worked fine. So, I'm putting a few things away now after the service, going home, and crashing.

Took a glance at your ideas, Cayzle. Will work through them once my brain cells are functioning again!

But just a quick comment. In the published write up, a Jotun cannot leave the Paragon class to take levels in something else until attaining 6th level. I like the flavor and reasoning, and want to keep that. Once 6th level is hit, picking up another class is fine.

Oh, and the -1 to the published first level Nat AC is fine. I was going to propose that myself.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 5:05:47 PM
Multiclassing after 6th level is fine by me.

Honor Bright (Kathy) 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 5:27:45 PM
Yeah, that's the trouble with traits. I usually have a pretty clear idea of who my character is, and it always seems like the published traits only kinda sorta halfway apply to what I'm really after.

Honor's parents would not dedicate her soul to anything, and even if they did, it would have been Pantheon.

Which, honestly is okay, because I don't need her to be able to cast Comprehend Languages. I just want her to have her father's sword. But if that's too weird, it's not something I absolutely need, so her character sheet can stand as is.



Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 6:21:21 PM
Ugh, Kathy! It is the least weird thing among us. Why not make your twist something this:

Kathy's Twist:

(1) Honor Bright is an aasimar.

(2) Honor Bright has an heirloom sword. It grows in power as she levels.

lvl 1) masterwork
lvl 4) +1 enhancement
lvl 7) +2 enhancement equivalent
lvl 10) +3 enhancement equivalent
lvl 12) +4 enhancement equivalent
lvl 14) +5 enhancement equivalent
lvl 15) +6 enhancement equivalent
lvl 16) +7 enhancement equivalent
lvl 17) +8 enhancement equivalent
lvl 18) +9 enhancement equivalent
lvl 19) +10 enhancement equivalent
lvl 20) +11 enhancement equivalent
After level 1, the value of the sword counts against allowed WBL. At level 7 and higher, each time she levels she can redefine the balance of enhancement bonuses and powers to make an equivalency.

Honor Bright (Kathy) 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 7:45:11 PM
I mean, yeah, that would be great if it's okay with everybody.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 8:33:15 PM
It is perfectly balanced because it counts against WBL, and honestly just saves trips to the Catacombs. Plus nice RP.

SteveM - Elron Proposal 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 9:17:49 PM
Seems that Elron's twist goes far beyond combining monk and barbarian. I don't see that an heirlom sword in addition to a non-standard race would be too twisty.

Zeoll | Twist: Greensinger | Cayzle 
Sunday July 5th, 2020 10:03:00 PM
Friends, Moderator Rob is about to get our framing story started. Here on out, please put OOC chat, twist stuff, etc etc in "private post to DM" mode. We're all DMs, so we'll all see that, but it will be maybe less disruptive to the story.

We're waiting on Kim's final proposal for his Twist and votes for Kathy's revision (so far there are three yesses, me, Kathy, Steve).

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